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Timing is everything.

#61
Freeze Andy said:
poopie a brick, there is a high hat there. Its so so so low in the mix, you breath and you miss it. I am a heavy breather, lol.
I agree, its a rather trivial matter to get all hung up about.
So as a bass player i have conditioned my brain to follow the bass drum. What is this idea about following the high hat? Especially if you cant hear the damn thing.
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My good friend( singer/lead guitar) used to have a saying,"there's nothing more fragile/sensitive than a musicians ego!" maybe he's been working on his timing or read an article on his idol & said "timing is the most important thing a drummer does,or it important to keep your hi hats in time". long ago, I got schooled by a busy drummer, he scolded me "it's important to keep track of time all the time(as a rhythm section!). I think I mentioned It was hard to know where beat 1 was with his "busy" playing. I knew I hit a nerve, when he went on a long rant! give him time, let him know you were mistaken, even if you know your right, if you think you want to work with him in the future. I once destroyed a relationship with a dingus drummer, by touching a sensitive subject too much! but I hated him, and didnt care if I ever played with him again! no loss. but I got a rep of being a perfectionist, amongst our small circle.
 
#63
Yellow Bang66 said:
My good friend( singer/lead guitar) used to have a saying,"there's nothing more fragile/sensitive than a musicians ego!" maybe he's been working on his timing or read an article on his idol & said "timing is the most important thing a drummer does,or it important to keep your hi hats in time". long ago, I got schooled by a busy drummer, he scolded me "it's important to keep track of time all the time(as a rhythm section!). I think I mentioned It was hard to know where beat 1 was with his "busy" playing. I knew I hit a nerve, when he went on a long rant! give him time, let him know you were mistaken, even if you know your right, if you think you want to work with him in the future. I once destroyed a relationship with a dingus drummer, by touching a sensitive subject too much! but I hated him, and didnt care if I ever played with him again! no loss. but I got a rep of being a perfectionist, amongst our small circle.
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Yep, an experienced, confident professional will just look at you, like they don’t understand you, if you try a musical argument. They won’t quit.
 
#64
lol insert random drummer and bass player here:woot:.....what a flustercluck!

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#66
dreamadream99 said:
I once knew a drummer who was so despondent over his bad timing, that he threw himself in back of a train.
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Almost ashamed to say it took me a moment... :) .

Biggbass said:
The real issue I see is that if something so trivial caused your friend to not want to associate with you anymore then perhaps he wasn't really your friend to begin with.
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BassDad1964 said:
Ummm...the high hat yes/no is not the issue here sir. Just sayin'.
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Agreed, and by reading a bit between the lines I see a LOT more going on. Spending an hour to determine the tempo of a song, honestly, would have put me in the same place as your drummer. First, its not that important - but more importantly, it should take all but 10 seconds. Listen, and then count off in the same timing.

I know too that we have to work with others in the band, but it sounds a bit like you were micro managing the drummer. And if not that, at the very least NOT trusting his instincts. Its frustrating for anyone to have someone argue their instrument... especially when they don't play the instrument.

I do my job, I leave others to doing theirs. If I can't trust them to do that, then I don't really want to play with them. And if someone badgered me and I had to argue about something I knew I was right about, I wouldn't want to play with them either. Unless of course they were paying me :) . I'm easy that way.
 
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#68
Freeze Andy said:
hardnheavy, the timing issue was probably a subplot. you know people and power plays. In the letter he wrote me, he emphasised that part of the conversation . It was I that asked the question and he was answering a different question. Trying to impose " he's" knowledge agenda. The more i think about it, the more i think it was a power play. So my question remains, if you cant hear the high hat, what do you keep time to?
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Every piece of the drum kit implies a beat, not just the hi hat or bass drum, and even if not being played directly on the beat. I like to listen to the whole of the drum part to identify where the beat is and the feel i want to jump into. Also, it is my job to help keep the time as well, not just the drummer.
 
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#70
Freeze Andy said:
Ok so my buddy drummer comes over to my place to rehearse a couple of songs. One song in particular, whitney Houston I will always love you. We have a very talented young girl who really can nail it. Anyway we wanted to get the timing right when we rehearse with her. Ist issue, i put a click track to it to measure what it is we are doing. Ist problem, it was obviously recorded on tape and the timing moves around a bit. After about an hr or so i have it all straightened out. Then my mate starts rambling on about "he keeps the time off the high hat". If you listen carefully, there is no high hat only a side stick click. Then he wants to argue that hes right and i dont know what i am talking about. "Ok, i hear what you say, but there is no high hat on the recording".
He just wrote me a letter to say he doesnt want to associate with me anymore.
*** just happened? Look, I am the first to admit i dont know it all, far from it, but is he talking in tongues, lol?
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If the timing “moves around a bit“ because it’s on tape I’ll take it that you’re referring to an analog recording that was either made or played on a substandard tape machine. In that case you should also have heard the pitch moving around as well. In analog recordings they can’t be separated without advanced tools and effort.

When you say timing, what do you mean? Tempo? Rubato? Just how atomic clock-like does it need to be? The song was written to portray emotion so a drum machine approach kills that.

Because you didn’t hear a high hat doesn’t mean that it’s not there. There’s a difference between “I don’t hear a high hat” and “there is no high hat.” The former expression leaves you with something to work on, the latter gets you a letter from a former friend.

He wasn’t “talking in tongues” and now you’re not talking at all. It’s your loss.
 
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#71
Interesting set of red flags here.

1) Spending an hour to figure out the tempo of a recording? Dude, that's 10 seconds. Yeah OK, so that one particular recording of one singer doing the song was 64 bpm and you're playing it at 66. BFD.

2) Why are you trying, with the resources available to a (probably) 5 ish piece cover band, to duplicate a commercial "entertainment product" that probably took a month and 45 of the finest studio musicians on earth plus untold amounts of post processing, to make?

3) Just get the damn lead sheet, listen to whoever's recording you like best, and just PLAY THE DAMN TUNE.

4) Who on God's green earth gives a flying you know what whether, on one specific recording of one artist's rendition, the drummer kept the off beats on high hat, or with rim shots? Do you realize that to make that recording there probably were 10 different drum tracks some with rim shots, some with snare, some with high hat, some with cowbell on the off beats, and a couple where he did the whole thing on tubular bells? Can you hear the off beat? Great! What more do you WANT?

5) Do you REALLY think that on tour, as Whitney Houston performed this tune, probably thousands of times, over multiple tours, with multiple different sets of pickup bands, the drummer-of-the-week always played this tune exactly the same, every single time for the multiple years she performed it? Hell, she probably had three or four different musical directors in that time. One tour they'd do it with a string section, next time with synth pads everywhere, next time with just piano drums bass like a cocktail trio. Why are you so obsessed with ONE recording?

Just play the darn tune. It's not freaking Beethoven.
 
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#73
Freeze Andy said:
*** just happened?
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The drummer thought you were getting together to rehearse how Y'ALL were going to play the tune and instead you spent an hour trying to figure out whether the recording was 66.485 bpm or 66.492 bpm, then you argued with him about whether the drummer on a recording was playing high hat or rim shots on off beats.

He came over thinking you were going to work on things like "where do we play soft, where loud; where is it all rubato with just cymbal shimmer and where do I start keeping time; how many choruses; are we gonna do the verse or just jump in at chorus; what shall we do for the intro and the tag(S)?" and this is what you gave him instead.

I'd be outta there, too.
 
#74
Well man, I haven't listened to the recording to see if there's a hi hat or not, but everyone seems to think there is one so you need to suck that one up. However the real point is, a song like that, the timing comes from musical feel, you all need to be listening to each other, copping the singer's interpretation of the song, and playing off how the song is breathing, if that makes any kind of sense. Don't stress it, you are getting in a fight because you care about the music and you want to get it right, that's a good thing IMHO
 
#78
So because he varied from a single recorded version of a song neither of you really knew, you shut him down and questioned his ability then wonder why he blew you off?
Even now when it’s obvious you jumped the gun on the guy you insist on sticking to the mistake you made rather than just let it go and have a drummer to collaborate with?
Lotsa luck with that bass player thing.
 
#79
Several points here.

1. Whether side stick or hi hat is the best choice is stylistic and what you feel sounds better. If both are on the track there is probably a reason they both are. Nothing says when you play it you can't do or the other, but that's a stylistic issue and not 'keeping time issue'.

2. There is a post on this page that somehow suggests Whitney had a bunch of pick up bands and drummer of the week? Behave. Even if this were the case, and it isn't, Whitneys band would have always have been some heavy hitters. The point about each drummer interpreting it slightly differently is valid, and probably was the over all point but it was framed in a very poor way.

3. Trust whoever is playing their instrument is able to pick up details you initially miss. I've trusted guitar players when I've not heard parts on records, most of the time they are correct. Only once or twice have they been totally wrong but you'll hear things in the bass that they won't and vice versa. Accept it.

4. If you need to rely on any musician to keep time for you then you have some serious work to do on your playing. It's not the drummers job to keep time, it's everyones job. Do your job.
 
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