My local community orch recently did Beethoven 5. I hadn't played the work for quite a while but had worked on the Scherzo passage with students enough over the years so I felt fairly confident. The interesting thing for me was when our conductor decided to slow the movement down to emphasize the clarity of the inner parts. I was so used to the "barnburner" tempo that it took some adjustment for me to make the spiccato work at a slower speed.
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Double Bass Tips for practising fast bowings
- Thread starter Julius
- Start date
What's a "gee-up?" (Two countries separated by a common language).
Steve, I play German, but my teacher plays French. He can't play a convincing spiccato with the German hold, and I believe that spiccato is easier with French hold ... my mind's imagining supports that position anyway.
I'd love to have offspring that played an instrument other than mobile phone...
A 'Gee-up' is a motivating shock or other 'kick up the arse'. For her it was a case of "get these last issues put to bed or you need to switch to German and start again". They were small issues in that the changes were subtle but they were having a big impact on other things and would have become technical blockers later down the line had they not been fixed now. She put in a ton of work over the last half of term to really optimise her bow hold and general posture and the difference is audible. She is so much more relaxed and fluent now and it comes through in the sound.
They always find time for that!!
Some spiccato from Hal Robinson, if you can fight your way through he ancient videotape.
And the other excerpt, for good measure:
The bow stroke in that passage is just really, really tough. It's really fast with lots of string crossings, very difficult to keep consistent. Mozart 40 is a similar problem for me, it's so fast that it's really difficult to keep the bounce going.
My mentor and principal in the Omaha symphony way back when was a real purist about a lot of things. He had been in the Nat'l Symphony and still played gut strings, hated the solo bass literature, and refused to do any sort of scordatura, no matter what the conductor wanted or the music called for. He did,however, really know the orch repertoire and could play the Beethoven 5 tricky parts like nobody I have heard since. He made it look so easy and got such a great sound that it's still my goal after 50 years.
I'd fight him pretty hard on historical accuracy, but there's definitely a huge amount of value in the mindset a semi-local brewery used to have - "Do one thing. Really, really well."
I don't know quite what you mean, but I know he wouldn't allow scordatura in the section for practical performance reasons, which to me was good. Trying to retune during a concert can be tough and impractical in lots of situations I can think of. A composer or conductor may want something that is not possible or practical. Also, I think that for a lot of orchestral bassists of his era, the solo lit was another distraction in terms of doing the job at hand. Soloists(of which there were very few back then) were soloists and orchestra players were orchestra players. What he did have was really solid knowledge of the rep and the techniques needed to play it.
Speed is a matter of precision. Practice slow, careful and clean. Once whatever you are working on is clean, slowly speed it up until you jump up into the fastest you can play - usually sort of a "twitch" that you can't control. Slowly slow down until it basically long tones. Repeat for several decades. The idea is to close that gap between the fastest speed we can control and the "twitch" as much as possible.
I am inclined to agree with jallenbass above and develop fast clearly articulated sounds bowing on-the-string, then semi-off before tackling spiccato. Much of Bozo's playing above is perhaps semi-off the string that still relies on the flexibility of both e bow and strings. My broad ideas about each of these bowing styles have been lifted from a previous thread started by Chapter7Seeds on July 21, 2020.
"LesFret, this is my spiel about Off-String Bowing!
The string is a spring, the bow stick is a spring, the hair is a spring. Your bow hold, wrist and arm must respect and work with these springs in all forms of bowing. If you understand these relationships then bowing becomes easy and fun.
The bow stick rotates around the R thumb (pivot point). The index finger has two tasks. It hooks over the stick to control the height of the bow point and guide the bow movement at 90 degrees to each string. Working with the thumb it hooks the bow down onto the strings in (broadly speaking) three forms of bow stroke. On the String, Off the String and Semi-Off the String.
Off-string strokes are where the bow hair is bounced into/dropped onto the string as the hand moves back and forth sideways. The flexibility of the stick, hair and string causes the bow to rebound and be trapped by the hand for the identical return stroke. The sound is often lighter than on-string bowing and has lots of character
The stick and hair are most flexible at the middle of the bow. Begin the off-string adventure here by bouncing the bow vertically with no sideways movement. Use the index finger to rotate the stick around the thumb and strike the string. The index finger will trap the rebound each time like dribbling a basketball. The point of the bow will rise and fall a lot and there will be virtually no sound. The moment the bow starts to move sideways (like a "vee" with a rounded bottom) as it drops and rebounds you will begin to make short spikey sounds. The sideways movement can come from experimenting with movements of the fingers, wrist, elbow or a combination of the three. I call this a STRUCK STROKE. It is also possible to produce a RICOCHET bowing (bouncing more than once in each direction) using this index finger/ thumb relationship.
Once you get comfortable with this form of bounce, say using 8th notes at quarter = 80 - 90, move it around the length of the bow hair. In the upper half of the bow it still rebounds well but sounds become softer and lighter. As you come back towards the balance point of the bow you will notice that the original "Vee" shape movement loses its springs. You begin to carry the bow more through its bounce in a shallow scooping motion. Until you reach the balance point the tip of the bow will probably rise and fall more that your hand. At and inside the balance point the bow stick will tend to travel parallel with itself as you carry the bounce. Inside the balance point you can use the bow weight help you GOUGE notes out of the lower strings, very useful for FF quarter notes in say Beethoven.
You can clearly hear the difference between the length of the struck and carried bounce if first you pat the back of one hand vertically with the other then brush the other hand sideways about 4" in a longer flatter shallow scooping motion. I call this my HAYDN / MOZART bounce, eg repeated 8th notes in Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, that produces warmer longer bounced sounds with more life and character than playing on the string.
As well as shortness and character of the off-string notes there are speed and dynamics to consider. On-string playing can clearly produce musical sounds of any length and dynamic if you are careful with bow length, bow weight and contact point. Off-string bowings, be they struck or scooped, tend to work well in different narrower speed ranges. Faster or slower will tend to force you back down onto the strings again, especially for louder dynamics.
My understanding is that the Italians invented the more middle-of-the-bow SPICCATO to produce clear frothy sounds, full of life Eg. Vivaldi "Four Seasons" rapid 16th notes. This can easily become a semi-off-the-string bow stroke called SAUTILLE to produce very fast chuckling sounds. Because the bass bow is heavier and slower what we tend to call Spiccato is often more like the warmer bounce closer in to the bow hold.
There is lots of experimenting to do. Each bow and player are different and some bows JUST WILL NOT produce a decent spiccato. Time to trade in for a better one? This is also why I would always upgrade my bow before I upgraded my bass (in a perfect world) and why people pay thousands."
We are still guessing whether you are using German or French bow but the broad principles of each bow stroke still apply.
Best wishes, DP
"LesFret, this is my spiel about Off-String Bowing!
The string is a spring, the bow stick is a spring, the hair is a spring. Your bow hold, wrist and arm must respect and work with these springs in all forms of bowing. If you understand these relationships then bowing becomes easy and fun.
The bow stick rotates around the R thumb (pivot point). The index finger has two tasks. It hooks over the stick to control the height of the bow point and guide the bow movement at 90 degrees to each string. Working with the thumb it hooks the bow down onto the strings in (broadly speaking) three forms of bow stroke. On the String, Off the String and Semi-Off the String.
Off-string strokes are where the bow hair is bounced into/dropped onto the string as the hand moves back and forth sideways. The flexibility of the stick, hair and string causes the bow to rebound and be trapped by the hand for the identical return stroke. The sound is often lighter than on-string bowing and has lots of character
The stick and hair are most flexible at the middle of the bow. Begin the off-string adventure here by bouncing the bow vertically with no sideways movement. Use the index finger to rotate the stick around the thumb and strike the string. The index finger will trap the rebound each time like dribbling a basketball. The point of the bow will rise and fall a lot and there will be virtually no sound. The moment the bow starts to move sideways (like a "vee" with a rounded bottom) as it drops and rebounds you will begin to make short spikey sounds. The sideways movement can come from experimenting with movements of the fingers, wrist, elbow or a combination of the three. I call this a STRUCK STROKE. It is also possible to produce a RICOCHET bowing (bouncing more than once in each direction) using this index finger/ thumb relationship.
Once you get comfortable with this form of bounce, say using 8th notes at quarter = 80 - 90, move it around the length of the bow hair. In the upper half of the bow it still rebounds well but sounds become softer and lighter. As you come back towards the balance point of the bow you will notice that the original "Vee" shape movement loses its springs. You begin to carry the bow more through its bounce in a shallow scooping motion. Until you reach the balance point the tip of the bow will probably rise and fall more that your hand. At and inside the balance point the bow stick will tend to travel parallel with itself as you carry the bounce. Inside the balance point you can use the bow weight help you GOUGE notes out of the lower strings, very useful for FF quarter notes in say Beethoven.
You can clearly hear the difference between the length of the struck and carried bounce if first you pat the back of one hand vertically with the other then brush the other hand sideways about 4" in a longer flatter shallow scooping motion. I call this my HAYDN / MOZART bounce, eg repeated 8th notes in Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, that produces warmer longer bounced sounds with more life and character than playing on the string.
As well as shortness and character of the off-string notes there are speed and dynamics to consider. On-string playing can clearly produce musical sounds of any length and dynamic if you are careful with bow length, bow weight and contact point. Off-string bowings, be they struck or scooped, tend to work well in different narrower speed ranges. Faster or slower will tend to force you back down onto the strings again, especially for louder dynamics.
My understanding is that the Italians invented the more middle-of-the-bow SPICCATO to produce clear frothy sounds, full of life Eg. Vivaldi "Four Seasons" rapid 16th notes. This can easily become a semi-off-the-string bow stroke called SAUTILLE to produce very fast chuckling sounds. Because the bass bow is heavier and slower what we tend to call Spiccato is often more like the warmer bounce closer in to the bow hold.
There is lots of experimenting to do. Each bow and player are different and some bows JUST WILL NOT produce a decent spiccato. Time to trade in for a better one? This is also why I would always upgrade my bow before I upgraded my bass (in a perfect world) and why people pay thousands."
We are still guessing whether you are using German or French bow but the broad principles of each bow stroke still apply.
Best wishes, DP
Carbon fiber bows in general and affordable snakewood bows from China really level the playing field for spiccato. I had a sweet, light old Brazil wood bow that would really sing but just didn't bounce for years. We should keep a Carbon fiber bow around until we can drop a few grand on bow and even after that!
I spent all of high school on a Finale bow until recently scoring a great deal on a 1930s pernambuco bow that was actually owned by Herman Reinshagen (principal of LA phil in the early-mid 1900s IIRC). Paid $1200 for it and it outshined every bow I tried, even ones up to $2500.
That's an opinion to have about solo lit, and it has some merits even if I don't necessarily agree with it. However:
This is all rather inside baseball and aside from the topic at hand, but historically, bassists didn't just retune to "scordatura" often (i.e. Don't play a piece in Eb on A D viennese bass - just retune it), they did it constantly. The idea, also, that a four-stringed bass tuned in fourths was a "standard" for any extended period prior to the 20th century, or even that tuning was standardized within sections, isn't accurate. I would assert that having several basses all tuned differently was somewhat common in orchestras up until the time of Brahms, whose music shows some of the first writing for the double bass as an instrument that is idiomatic for an instrument tuned in fourths. Prior to this, most composers relied on the strategy of "Write for the continuo, and the basses will figure it out," or later, "Write for the celli and bassoons, and the basses will figure it out."
> What he did have was really solid knowledge of the rep and the techniques needed to play it.
This was what I meant when I said, "do one thing, really really well!" I bet he was an all-star when it came to laying it down.
Yes, old thread, but how is the spiccato coming on y'all?
I'm currently working through Dennis Whittaker's book 17 and videos. Starting with medium spiccato and trampolines basketball.
I'll take my time and give it 6 months, with about 10-20 mins/day.
FWIW, my teacher reckons people spend too much energy worrying about perfecting spiccato.
He says that it's basically a sound, and that can be achieved by a very short bow and it is almost impossible for a listener to distinguish whether it was on or off the string...Still, I'm going to give it a serious workout and hope to see some progress and develop this very useful technique.
I'm currently working through Dennis Whittaker's book 17 and videos. Starting with medium spiccato and trampolines basketball.
I'll take my time and give it 6 months, with about 10-20 mins/day.
FWIW, my teacher reckons people spend too much energy worrying about perfecting spiccato.
He says that it's basically a sound, and that can be achieved by a very short bow and it is almost impossible for a listener to distinguish whether it was on or off the string...Still, I'm going to give it a serious workout and hope to see some progress and develop this very useful technique.
Just found this thread quoting Edwin Barker's method for teaching spiccato. Sounds easy!
And this:
bass-community.tonebase.co
And this:
Bow Strokes: Building Legato into Spiccato
Description: Taking inspiration from the many approaches to sound creation that our artists on the double bass platform have shared, this Two-Week-Intensive (TWI) will surely present some new ideas…
bass-community.tonebase.co
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