TL-606 Advice and Recommendations

[estimated_eyes]

I like to see those who take the effort to read and learn about this stuff actually be able to be at an advantage when dealing with it. Knowledge really is power, I'm in admittedly unique position in that I have been on this industry for a long enough time to have actually designed with this technology and know first hand the benefits as well as the limitations that different parts or approaches might bring.

I share this because I get so many PM's from guys here who are desperate to learn more and to cut through the BS and bad (or misleading) information to reduce confusion. I'm paying back for the opportunities I had early on when this information was just about impossible to get. I learned from some really sharp guys in the 1970's and early 80's, so I didn't have to make as many mistakes by myself. It's always better to learn from somebody else's mistakes... especially when it comes to things like skydiving

You are much appreciated for your services! Thank you

 

[byacey]

I like to see those who take the effort to read and learn about this stuff actually be able to be at an advantage when dealing with it. Knowledge really is power, I'm in admittedly unique position in that I have been on this industry for a long enough time to have actually designed with this technology and know first hand the benefits as well as the limitations that different parts or approaches might bring.

I share this because I get so many PM's from guys here who are desperate to learn more and to cut through the BS and bad (or misleading) information to reduce confusion. I'm paying back for the opportunities I had early on when this information was just about impossible to get. I learned from some really sharp guys in the 1970's and early 80's, so I didn't have to make as many mistakes by myself. It's always better to learn from somebody else's mistakes... especially when it comes to things like skydiving

This is a sign of wisdom. It's far better to learn from someone else's mistakes than making your own, although in my experiences, the best remembered lessons are the ones that come close to killing you.

I think it was Einstein that defined insanity as repeatedly making the same mistake and expecting a different outcome.

 

[byacey]

recent attempts that would be better design would be using 5" or 6" mid drivers. still limiting and somewhat waste of time. efficiency is low and would require 2 or more drivers. and highend still doesnt get much better above 3k

Right way to do it, would be using 2" or 3" drivers for highs. again same problem, efficiency is very low would require at least 3 to 5 drivers.

Have you ever heard of the Community M4? You won't find anything else that will come close to it for midrange efficiency, and likewise the VHF100 for high frequency.

 

[BogeyBass]

Have you ever heard of the Community M4? You won't find anything else that will come close to it for midrange efficiency, and likewise the VHF100 for high frequency.

oh yeah definitely. and just like many JBL drivers or EV drivers certain designs set the pace and then others follow the design. My main interest with actually learning loud speakers was with horn loaded speakers. Just because at the time we were more interested in drugs and girls and trying to cash out on whole series of undergrounds or illegal warehouse parties.
Eventually a good 2 or 3 good crews ran some good parties. but we wanted to beat them all with sound quality. pretty expensive to get quality. i was already selling and buying raw speakers at my flea market spot. finally found the right guys and said, Hey man i can get a heck of a deal on these Eminence drivers. lets try and shove them into some actually decent sounding boxes. and away we went with blowing up every single dam eminence you can think of lol.
biggest challenge was the high end snap and crackle and every system i ever heard annoyed the living krap out of me. Basically the JBL horns and drivers was the best at the time and hard to get or expensive.
i stopped farting around with horns but often tempted to get back into it. cause now there is basically alot of dirt cheap knock offs or pretty famous JBL horns. likewise even now some of the later waveguides have been copied by companys like prv and many others.
would have saved us alot of money back then. but we achieved our goal and had a dam good system and later one of the better crews decided to join forces with us. and we proceeded to dominate most of the bay area undergrounds. we had the sound, they had very good promoters
anyways that was a real rant lol. just anytime i see horn drivers i think of the warehouse days. big bins, u haul trucks....and cops lots of stupid cops lol

 

[byacey]

Basically the JBL horns and drivers was the best at the time and hard to get or expensive.

JBL, Best? Expensive? Ever hear of TAD?

 

[BogeyBass]

JBL, Best? Expensive? Ever hear of TAD?

Not to familiar with TAD

I came out of the bay area so San Francisco was full of quite a few wierd speaker guys and collectors.
had the chance to see alot of collections.
Crazy crazy Japanese guy i met had actual real Western Electric 16a and 12a horns. and probably every hifi speaker you could think of. half of what he talked about i forget he probably had TAD and god knows what else.

I didnt know much about amplifier design then , but had the usual guy squeaking about audio magic. not only did i really wanna see those western electrics but he had Quad 404 and 405 current dumping amps. Some random hippy tweaker guy at one point had me set on thinking it was gonna change the world lol. all very comical now. still was pretty cool to see the amps looked liked alien technology or just had a cool case and heatsink

 

[Wasnex]

Not to familiar with TAD

TAD makes a fine compression driver that was considered a substitute and huge upgrade to the JBL 2440.
TAD TD-4001

Here's a post that shows the TADs extended HF response:
Invalid Link Removed

Course one issue is the JBL 2350 horn gets pretty beamy above 10khz. So you might need a different horn to actually take advantage of the TAD 4001's benefits.

 

[Redbrangus]

I'm not sure how a reference to a $3K compression driver relates to this thread, but the 2350 horn has been obsolete since the '80's, which is when the technical paper excerpted was published. It may be that some things have changed a bit since then.

 

[byacey]

I was just pointing out that there are superior alternatives to piling a bunch of low efficiency cone drivers together to increase sensitivity; this path leads to all sorts of other problems. Selecting the right driver for the application is what design / engineering is all about.

Albeit, these drivers I mentioned are pro audio devices, but the technology has been around for a long while to build an efficient cabinet.

 

[Redbrangus]

Actually, I was referring to the TAD driver. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Wasnex]

I'm not sure how a reference to a $3K compression driver relates to this thread, but the 2350 horn has been obsolete since the '80's, which is when the technical paper excerpted was published. It may be that some things have changed a bit since then.

IMHO,The JBL 2380 was not necessarily a huge improvement over the 2350, other than being more compact and lighter. The TAD was considered a huge upgrade over available JBL compression drivers. Somebody must be still buying them since they are still available for sale.

All of this is only tangentially related to the the thread, but I didn't bring it up.

I agree things have changed a lot over the years, and yet we are still talking about EVMs. FYI, I own EVM 18Bs and JBL 2350s, but sadly no TAD 4001s. I did get a bargain on a pair of JBL 2445s, and they are good enough for my little experiments. I also have a pair of JBL 2405s and 2404s, but I can barely hear 10khz at this stage of my life.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming if anyone cares to talk about EVMs anymore .

 

[Wasnex]

I was just pointing out that there are superior alternatives to piling a bunch of low efficiency cone drivers together to increase sensitivity; this path leads to all sorts of other problems. Selecting the right driver for the application is what design / engineering is all about.

Albeit, these drivers I mentioned are pro audio devices, but the technology has been around for a long while to build an efficient cabinet.

I don't think the EVMs are particularly low sensitivity by today's standards, perhaps the opposite would be true on average. They do have somewhat low power handling. The thing is, there are certain aspect about the EVM design that still makes them very desirable. The have a unique voicing that many find desirable, and the also have a curvilinear cone design that broadens their HF dispersion characteristics a bit.

I have a Greenboy Dually loaded with Faital 15PR400 and a pair of TL405s loaded with EVM18Bs. The EVMs get louder quicker, but over about 200W the Faitals stomp the EVMs. The Faitals also go way deeper in a much smaller box, but I prefer the sound of the EVMs. The Faitals are very flat and sound dark to my ears. The EVMs have a rising mid response and sound more open and articulate.

Lastly, the the Faitals seems to beam the highs more, and keep in mind I am comparing a 15 to an 18, so the 18 should definitely be more beamy if all things were equal. So the curvilinear cone must actually work to broaden the dispersion, because I can stand closer the EVMs without losing the treble response.

 

[Wasnex]

Just for fun, Faital 15PR400, and Electro Voice EVM15L and EVM15B Frequency Response Plots.

 

[Chickenwheels]

I normally DI, but last night I used a Beta 57a to mic a single EVM15L into our QSC rig (K12.2s and KW18s). The quality of sound was amazing! Even on stage you could hear/feel the difference, very much the “my bass but louder/everywhere” thing.
So I kept my amp low!

 

[hbarcat]

I've reconed hundreds of EVMs where they simply didn't live up to your suggested standards (both OEM series 2 and ProLine). As a previously large OEM manufacturer (actually with 3 different companies, using thousands and thousands of these drivers) user of these drivers, I absolutely stand by my statement of opinion about their limitations. This doesn't mean that they were bad drivers (in fact they are still some of my favorites under the right situations), just limited by today's standards.

This. I have a TL 606 that I gig with and also an EV B215m that stays in my rehearsal space. Learned pretty quickly that too much low end (boosting below about 65Hz) will melt the drivers.

They really are fragile, because they're such an old design, but that's the exact reason why I like them. The EV 15 speakers have an amazingly rich low-mid response and can get quite loud with relatively low power, if you don't abuse them.

 

[agedhorse]

This. I have a TL 606 that I gig with and also an EV B215m that stays in my rehearsal space. Learned pretty quickly that too much low end (boosting below about 65Hz) will melt the drivers.

They really are fragile, because they're such an old design, but that's the exact reason why I like them. The EV 15 speakers have an amazingly rich low-mid response and can get quite loud with relatively low power, if you don't abuse them.

Yup, your experience is. Or unique. For smaller amps, it's a great option (if wight is not an issue) but for higher power use as amps got larger and music got louder, the failure rate grew to unacceptable levels. Pretty much every manufacturer that used these parts encountered the same thing.

 

[hbarcat]

Yup, your experience is. Or unique. For smaller amps, it's a great option (if wight is not an issue) but for higher power use as amps got larger and music got louder, the failure rate grew to unacceptable levels. Pretty much every manufacturer that used these parts encountered the same thing.

I gig with a single TL 606 and my amp is a Mesa M2000 that is only 300 watts at 8 ohms. We keep our stage volume to a minimum so my amp is usually not even at half volume, which keeps the speaker safe.

A few years ago, a guest bassist borrowed my rig for a few songs and (in defiance of my instructions not to adjust my settings) he turned the volume up and jacked up the bass knob.

Melted the EV 15L. If I had a 3015 in the cab, it would have taken that, and more, all day. In fact, I replaced the driver with a 3015 and gigged with it a few times. I preferred the tone of the EV 15L and went back to that with a spare I had on hand.

The fact is, if I was in a band where I needed to run my modest 300 watt amp at close to full volume with some low bass tone dialed in, there's no way I could keep using the EV 15 driver. Mated with a higher wattage amp of 500 watts or more and forget about it.

 

[Chickenwheels]

As mentioned earlier, with two TL606 bins and 200watts (and some eq know how) you can bury an acoustic drum kit. Why you’d ever want to do that is inconceivable. Heck, one TL606 is usually plenty, especially with FOH support. And they sound awesome.
I did one of the loudest club gigs in town last night (earplugs needed all gig) and my 2xTL606/GK800RB rig sounded incredible. I had to turn down if anything.
The only way to kill an EVM is too much wattage or stupid amounts of bass boost. These are user errors, not the fault of the speaker.

 

[Chickenwheels]

Berg NV 425 vs. Mesa Diesel 215
Some interesting musings on TL/EVM vs. more modern cabs.
Firstly, I’m shocked at how loud both these cabs were being run with a 1001RB! It’s a wonder the Mesa survived.
Old TL/EVM cabs are definitely geared towards getting the most out of the lower wattage heads of yore. Modern designs are all about in-expensive high power, seemingly.

 

[BogeyBass]

Exactly, this isnt my first day on the job lol.

players go on and on about their amazing 500 watt amps and super light cabs.

Majority dont play any gigs any louder than what a 1x15 or 2x15 EVM would cover

Im well aware of the sound of the higher end faitals , B&C and Eminence Kappalites.

well aware that basic a 2x12 can cover a older 2x15

I mean i just watched a old Buddy Rich video performing on Johnny Carson.... Jazz
Bass player was using one of those Krappy 2 prong 100 watt bassmans with some poopy 2 small matching fender 2x15.
luckily nobody died on TV since that 2 prong and death capacitor was awaiting them. luckily the bass players just schooled pretty much 90% of the forum and Buddy Rich slaughtered 90% of all drummers lol

I think the quality of the tone destroys what any " jazz" player would tell you what yo need to play jazz these days.

Last live show i went too was Primitive Man. So im not some " old guy" lost in the good old days lol.
Sheer volume and overwhelming sound bath that band can display is not reproducible at home on your PC.
i dont think many players could touch the time signatures they hit, no matter how slow or disgusting they think it is.

What ground breaking neo cabinets were they using. what amazing 800 plus watt super machine was he using. to reach stage levels beyond what i think most talkbass members would even fathom

none zip nope. SVT head 810 cabinet. Did the soundman insist on low stage volume. nope.
did the venue have a dam annoying sub thingy. yep. drum mix amazing.
was the Guitar player " too loud" yup. Sound good...yup
vocals good everything good. most soundmen have heart attack trying mix this. these kids can play and the soundmen can handle it and mix it no problem.

im pretty picky bastard. if mix or pa sucks ill notice it right away. not a problem good system

ironically bands with in ears or monitors or really soft whisper stage volumes. go on and on about their amazing zillion watt amps and amazing speaker overhead.

then any band playing at face melting volumes. are using lead sleds or tube amps and huge piles of speakers.