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Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by estimated_eyes, Aug 28, 2019.
Yep. Do you not have the E-V TL606 builder's documents?
I believe they were posted in this thread. I have also seen them around online.
All I saw in the thread was that mounting guide, hence my question. The TL606 doc delves into what you can expect from stepdown mode, and a rough guide on how far you can take low end EQ safely, IIRC.
That's awesome. Do you have a PDF of that? Would love to read about it.
I'm curious about the differences with stepdown mode because I think the cab sounds great without being there.
Also curious if putting the cab in step down mode will make a difference if I am still using a HPF that cuts around 50hz anyway?
Ya'll are great for discussing this with me and sharing your knowledge as well. Thanks!
Here: EV TL-606...2x15
I've built around half a dozen 606 cabs over the years myself BTW. It always took two to really work for my gigs back then, and now a single lightweight 112 easily gets it done, but my uses are much different. In nay case you might as well optimize what you have, and I definitely know people who still prefer the old school thing that 606s do pretty well.
I found someone local selling these: Pair of 15 inch Bass Subwoofer Cabinet Boxes
You mention round ports. Does these look typical for the same "design" as a 606 but with round ports instead of slots?
Might snag one of these a throw a speaker in 'em!
So your tentative plan is to buy one of these cabs, put a different driver in it, and pair it with your EV/606 box? IMO, you'd be better off matching up to the driver and enclosure that you already have, but if you're determined to go that way, at least buy both of those boxes and put your EV in one of them. I would consider $100 for the pair of those home-brew boxes to be right at the very top of their value...they're kind of rough.
I have a MESA RR115 (TL606) I bought it about 10 years ago and it was loaded with a Kilomax Pro 15 in it. Heavy as heck and clearly been used as a sub of some type. I pulled that and have been running a 3015 in it ever since. I mainly use the cab as my practice cab and leave it in our band room. It does come out on an occasional gig. I have been using a Genz Benz Neo212t as my main cabinet for the last 6 years or so. I've never had an issue not being able to keep up with anyone volume wise. It's easy to live with, weighs in around 50lbs and has tilt back wheels so moving it around is really easy. And oh yeah, it sounds great!
BTW. I'm like you, I really like 15's.
Oh yeah, they're rough indeed and I wouldn't pay that price.
I'm just tossing out ideas, I have no plan. I was more curious about the round port vs slot. Always looking to understand this stuff more, so I was more curious if that design is essentially a 606 with round ports.
Just as another data point.
I don't hear THAT big a difference in volume between the 3015 and the EVM driver.
I prefer the TL606 cabinet with the center port open.
+1 on a 2x12 being a good solution as my GB 2x12 goes on the gig and the TL606 stays home.
Of course, I built mine out of left over 3/4" furniture grade oak plywood and it is even heavier than it should be...
Appreciate the recommendation! Yes, I do love 15's, but may need to look into a 212 down the road.
The TL-606 and that box are both bass-reflex boxes with ducted ports. In that regard, they are very similar designs, and IMO, there isn't a discernable difference in the performance of a rectangular duct vs. a round one . The ingenuity of the EV design (other than actually employing T/S concepts, a very new concept at the time it was designed) is in using the enclosure's sides to form three sides of the duct, requiring only a so-called 'shelf' to complete the duct. This allows the baffle board to be much smaller than if it has to accommodate round ports, resulting in an extremely compact box. But a bass-reflex box is a bass-reflex box...there is nothing mystical about the 606 enclosure. Any box with the same internal volume and with a duct (or ducts) that yield the same cross-sectional area and volume will perform pretty much the same.
Yes. And using 2x EVM 15 will decisively trump 1x 3015 simply because using more speakers is always better for creating more volume.
Plus, having the second 15 up near your ears/head helps with hearing yourself!
I had an EV B115, EV B215 and and the TL606 all at the same time.
Just odd timing to have either built or bought them all cheap.
All drivers worked perfectly.
The B115 sounded larger than the TL606 as that super heavy 8" driver added volume as well as some decent high end.
Obviously the B2115 was louder and giggable with a loud rock band.
But the Berg HT322 and the GB 2x12 NeoX really showed me what (older design) cabinets should really sound like. Much bigger, louder, and very clear.
I would think that the modern high end cabinets might have higher SPL, greater effeciency, and might sound a little better, but, like most products, diminishing quality vs. price occurs at the high end.
for the most part some what scary homemade boxes lol.
but yes essentially as mentioned they are all the same as far as they are all Reflex cabinets. Or usually just called ported cabinets.
they all function in the same manner. and there is probably 10 or more different ways to build a reflex cabinet. but they all behave in they same manner.
the basic model the 606 presets is there. it has so much volume and the port is designed to resonate at a specific frequency.
you could build a cabinet with 2 slot ports. 2 round ports 4 round ports etc etc blah blah. but essentially if the volume of the cabinet was 3.4 cubic feet and has a Fb or resonate freq of either 55 or 40hz it is essentially the Same as a 606. or basically just a common reflex cabinet designed for common 15" PA or musical instrument speakers.
All based on TS parameters. or Thiele Small parameters. named after the 2 guys that did all this research. Neville Thiele and Richard Small.
without writing a story book lol explaining how it works in a nutshell. They figured out how to measure the electrical and mechanical properties of loudspeakers. likewise also discovered how the response of a sealed enclosure or ported enclosure. closely matched the cutoff rate of common high pass filters. sealed being 1st or 2nd order response. Reflex being 3rd or 4th order response.
And in a nutshell using speaker data and some painful mathematical equations. you can achieve somewhat ideal performance of any loudspeaker. by measuring its properties then build a enclosure that alighns its frequency response with a filter.
probably well over 50 alignments developed over time. but the most common for Reflex or Ported essentially follows the order they naturally produce. 3rd order or 4th order. somewhat hard to match them exactly perfectly. So a whole set of " Quasi" alignments are pretty well accepted.
Likewise of all common filter types Bessel Butterworth chebyshev. usually the Butterworth is commonly used for live sound drivers. or high efficiency drivers.
For live sound reflex or ported usually a QB3 or QB4 alignment is Common. meaning 3rd order of 4th order butterworth. "Q" standing for the "Quasi" i mentioned earlier. Quasi Butterworth 3rd order or Quasi Butterworth 4th order.
Another somewhat common alignment for live sound and sub woofers also based on 3rd order or 4th order is the BB3 or BB4 alignment
ive seen various descriptions saying it means " Big Bass" or " Big Box" so BigBass 3rd order or BigBass 4th order.
Dont let my Bias skew your bias to much.
As far as building and designing a enclosure. I find slot ports difficult to deal with. but as a whole function the same as a round port. there is equations or end correction formulas to reduce the pain in the ass error factors of slots. but most free download calculators dont include them or the ones they do are usually incorrect.
If you really get down to it. a port doesnt resonate or move and accurately produce a waveform or signal like a speaker does.
its just pressure that resonates at a set frequency.
If understating the basic way pressure will radiate. a circle. then a ideal port would be a circle. its somewhat that simple.
a triangle port , square port, rectangular port. all work the same. the size of the opening and length will achieve resonance just like a round port.
the efficiency of a square or triangle or rectangle is lower, because the circular pressure trying to leave it. will always eventually hit more friction points. when this becomes more or less audible is like any port. depends on size and the pressure velocity
for the most part the bigger concern in port design is how much sound pressure the speaker is producing, hence at resonance the port will also have so much pressure leaving it at a certain velocity.
if velocity is high then eventually you will get a audible distortion called " chuffing" usually if the port, or ports is too small.
when working with a driver like the EV or many other 15" below 100hz real world power handling before fart out is usually around 80 to 150 watts. and likewise the ports will only be dealing with so much pressure. so its rather easy to get away with small ports.
when dealing with 200, 300, 500 watts of actual sound pressure below 100 hz then yes port design becomes little more important. basically the port needs to be bigger so it doesnt chuff at high volume.
most these system probably wont use a slot port. many do. but if they insist on using a slot port. any designer that actually " gets it" will use a more flared design called a trapezoid port. this will increase efficiency, and lower the distortion and even leakage that a normal slot has at very very high velocity
in nutshell the slot port size of the 606 is fine for most drivers. likewise 2 round ports that are 3" to 4" openings is usually fine for common 150 to 200 watt drivers. Meaning the usual " 300" or " 400" watt rated cabinets. that only realistically do 80 to 150 watts before they fart out or reach high distortion below 100 hz.
something your experiencing now and im sure your aware of the spongy ness or fart out of a single EV driver. and like most here have recommenced you essentially double the overall cone area of the system. by using a second exact same driver mounted in the exact same enclosure. and greatly increase the overall sound pressure before distortion. pretty much double or 3dB, meaning same watts and roughly twice the sound pressure. which is what i highly recommend. another matching driver like you have. in a matching enclosure
@BogeyBass Thanks for taking the time to explain that all, very much appreciated!
Always fancied trying a B115 or B215. Geez, they’re big and heavy though!
The charm of the TL is it’s size and shape for me. Especially after using 410s!
The B115 and B215 are pretty much a TL606 type cabinet. I believe they are a couple inches shallower than the published EV TL boxes but should come out to roughly the same internal volume.
Yep. Definitely prefer deeper/narrower shapes. They’re cool looking bins, though. There’s a pile of them in a sound hire companies warehouse near me. Tempting to try! I love old junk (tongue in cheek).