To add a 15 inch speaker or not

[Ric5]

It is a false assumption that larger drivers produce lower frequencies. It's simply not true. It's all about cabinet tuning. The vast majority of 410 cabs I have played can produce way more "low end" than most 15 cabs.

Also, mixing cabs and driver sizes is often a recipe for disaster. Phase cancelation CAN be a problem. It's a roll of the dice.

In short, most single 15 cabs would not help OP. They would add very little volume and likely no more "low end". There are exceptions. But they aren't cheap.

add a powered sub that will run off of the xlr out

 

[two fingers]

ok,
we have got one "matching party" that tries to tell that the adding of 115 to a 410 does gain only little of additional sound (which is not worth of it)

while the other one tries to tell that adding of 2x10 to 410 provides considerably more of sound.


And who is right?
I don't know! As long as the matching camps disagree themself?

Bass is hard to amplify. Physics of bass can be tricky. It has a lot to do with cabinet tuning. In fact, it has almost EVERYTHING to do with cabinet tuning....how the driver(s) and the box work together.

This is way over simplified, but I've always heard that with guitar, it's all about the speaker. You can literally hang a good speaker in a milk crate using wires and it will sound awesome. With bass, it's all about the cab. You can take 15 tiny little crap speaker and mount them in a cab. If you tune the cab correctly, you can get some great bass tone out of it. Two cabs tuned differently CAN make a mess of your volume and tone.

So, the reason many of us are champions of the matching cab method is that (again, way oversimplified) you can basically double exactly what you have.

"More low end" is also mainly a perception thing. If you increase volume, it will "feel" more boomy. A frequency spectrum analyzer might show zero difference. But you may perceive "more bass".

And we haven't even gotten into the fact that OP's guitar players might be dipping way down into his sonic space. That makes the physics even more difficult to navigate.

Want to have MORE fun???? Yes! Let's talk about an HPF. With several cabs I have owned, using an HPF in front of the cab (a device that literally chops off any frequencies below the set frequency) has INCREASED the low end output of the cab. The Ampeg 610 HLF was an example of this. Once I put a Broughton Alway On HPF in my chain, and slowly dialed it up, suddenly that cab opened up. It kicked like a mule and was able to take more output from my SVT. Everything got bigger. The volume AND perceived low-end output both increased.

In short, his question can be a complicated one. But many here throw out "simple" solutions.... Like "Just go get a Harley Benton 15 cab and you're all set". That may, or may not, produce positive results. It's a pretty tough experiment to try. "Let's go buy half a dozen cabs, one at the time, and see if they work. If not, keep returning them until one works."

He could need nothing more than an HPF to help his cab cut through. Or (and this is pretty likely) it could be a matter of the guitar players taking some low end OUT of their sound. Adding another DIFFERENT cab COULD help a little (depending on the cab and how well they work together). But if they are out of phase, or have other "physics issues", literally two cabs could sound WORSE than one. Adding another identical cab will pretty much guarantee more volume and perceived low end. But it could be a transport nightmare.

So what bothers me is the armchair quarterbacks, using anecdotal AT BEST "proof", seem to have a good bead on the physics of OP's rig, rehearsal space, his band dynamics (with regard to both music and relationships), his budget, etc.

Simply put, no they don't. We're all speculating at best.

So, I go back to this. OP, instead of getting ANOTHER cab, get a DIFFERENT one-cab solution. If it were me, and budget were no issue, I would try a Mesa Subway 215. If that sucker isn't loud and low enough for your needs, quite simply, your band is too loud. Also, you need to figure out if your guitarists are running tones that are too boomy. If they are fighting for your sonic space, you can have a rig I can hear from my house and it still won't matter. It will get buried. You need to figure out some room physics. Sometimes simple cab placement is the issue. Move a cab three feet in any direction and it MIGHT fix everything. Try different spots. Also, try standing further away from your cab to experiment. Try an HPF. You might be surprised at how effective they are at increasing perceived low end. If you're sending your cab more than it can handle (frequency wise) it will struggle at best.

All of these are things that MIGHT work. NONE of them are guaranteed to work. Neither is a Harley Benton 15 cab. In fact, if I were a betting man, I would say that one won't help at all.

 

[two fingers]

add a powered sub that will run off of the xlr out

While that certainly could "work" as far as adding perceived low end, it would cause a volume war the likes of which I've never participated in. You get PA sub loud, and the rest of the band will try to compete. That won't end well. It is my belief that they have a frequency battle on their hands, not a volume issue.

OP finds a way to get his own sonic space and the problem will (likely) simply go away. That involves physics and experimentation. That could be a positioning-in-the-room issue. It could be a guitar EQ issue. It could be a dozen problems all combining to bury the bass.

 

[etnoo]

Instead 1x15" add a second 410 or do as I have done... I used to have two Hartke cabs 1x15" + 4x10" but traded them for Ampeg SVT-610HLF and never looked back. Tons of low end, punch and clarity, got no problem with cutting through two loud guitars, loud drummer and a synthesizer
Good luck!

 

[Ric5]

While that certainly could "work" as far as adding perceived low end, it would cause a volume war the likes of which I've never participated in. You get PA sub loud, and the rest of the band will try to compete. That won't end well. It is my belief that they have a frequency battle on their hand, not a volume issue.

it sounds like there is already a volume war. The powered sub would help give the bass player more volume in a frequency range that is not taken up by the guitars.

 

[Redbrangus]

The OP hasn't been back since post #1 but as far as we know, he has a 50-watt Bassman. If that's the case, he doesn't have enough power. Period. Adding another cab might help some, but a 50-watt bass rig isn't going to keep up with two fuzzy guitars and a hard-hitting drummer. His 410 is probably as good as it's going to get without having more horsepower. IMHO

 

[two fingers]

it sounds like there is already a volume war. The powered sub would help give the bass player more volume in a frequency range that is not taken up by the guitars.

Oh, I agree. It would "work". I just don't think it would HELP. There's a big difference.

If the problem is actually a volume war, it would make things worse. He would be fighting fire with gasoline....which could be fun....but also detrimental in the long term.

 

[two fingers]

The OP hasn't been back since post #1 but as far as we know, he has a 50-watt Bassman. If that's the case, he doesn't have enough power. Period. Adding another cab might help some, but a 50-watt bass rig isn't going to keep up with two fuzzy guitars and a hard-hitting drummer. His 410 is probably as good as it's going to get without having more horsepower. IMHO

If that is the case, I couldn't agree more. I've done gigs with a 30W tube head (Ashdown Little Bastard). But it took a ridiculously loud 410 to pull it off (Epifani UL 410) and my band at the time had average to below average stage volume. And the LB30 was giving me all it had....and that's with an HPF in front. Without the HPF I would have been lacking.

Side note, it was actually a great sounding stage rig. Using a pick with flats on a P bass it was a one-trick pony....but it was one awesome pony!

 

[Stewie]

I had an SVT410 on an SVT15E. The 410 was not ported. Even though the 15 was on wheels, it's ported design coupled with the floor to give the rig a glorious low end. Yes, the 15 was getting four times the watts as each 10, and was more likely to blow than it's little brothers, but before it got loud enough to distort, hearing damage would have occurred. That was one rig that sounded great

 

[ThisBass]

Instead 1x15" add a second 410 or do as I have done... I used to have two Hartke cabs 1x15" + 4x10" but traded them for Ampeg SVT-610HLF and never looked back. Tons of low end, punch and clarity, got no problem with cutting through two loud guitars, loud drummer and a synthesizer
Good luck!

Regarding the published ampeg specs for -3dB points response the OP will get the best clarity and punch with his existing cab cause the -3dB point equals 60Hz.
If he would go with a 610HLF he would get NOT more volume but indeed more of low end which (honestly) is regarded by some folks as rather counterproductive thing within the bandmix.

And I'm very wondering myself what shall now be wrong or right in this regard?
The OP looks for more of low end but instead he gets suggestions not to do it cause it might cause some issues within the bandmix if he would have more of it.
At the other hand side some folks suggest him to go with a 610HLF that actually provides noticeable more of low end than his existing cab.

Personally I think, I do read more of contradictions rather than serious suggestions in this regard.
And I wonder how the OP shall be helped?
If I was in his shoes I'd feel quite confused!

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Where did I tell something about a 8 Ohm 210 and a 8 Ohm 410?

The OP has got a Bassman and can run safely either a 4 Ohm cab (or two of them) or a 8 Ohm cab (or two of them).

The ampeg 610 cab is a 4 Ohm cab that he can safely run with his Bassman. And he also can run his existing 410 safely with his Bassman.

If he goes for a 610 then he actually will add 210 to 410, cause his previous cab was 410.
And he will get the the same power out of his Bassman cause the impedance of the amp can be matched to either 4 Ohm or 8 Ohm.


Here you are with the ampeg specs.

410HE
Frequency Response (-3dB): 60Hz-18kHz
Usable Low Frequency (-10dB): 43Hz
Nominal Impedance: 8-Ohms
Sensitivity: 98dB

610HLF
Frequency Response (-3dB): 53Hz-18kHz
Usable Low Frequency (-10dB): 42Hz
Nominal Impedance: 4-Ohms
Sensitivity: 98dB

15E
Frequency Response (-3dB): 50Hz-3kHz
Usable Low Frequency (-10dB): 33Hz
Nominal Impedance: 8-Ohms
Sensitivity: 98dB


If the OP goes for the 610HLF he will get some more of low end with the 610HLF but he will get NOT more of volume cause the 410HE and the 610HLF have got the same Sensitivity that equals 98dB.
That's not very surprising cause the 610HLF is well known for its decent low end reponse but simultaneously somewhat mediocre sensitivity (for a cab of this format and size).

If the OP goes for another 410 then he will get with both cabs in combination a sensitivity that equals 101dB and a somewhat lower -3dB response due to coupling of two sources (two cabs).
The -3dB point for one cab equals 60Hz. May be with both matching cabs in combination the -3dB point might equal ~57Hz at best.

If the OP adds the 15E to the 410HE he will get a sensitivity that also equals 101dB (same sensitivity as it was for another 410). He will get some extended low end cause the 15E response -3dB point equals 50Hz. And he will (in addition) get some extra low end due to the coupling of sources (same beneficial effect as it was for the matching route).



And I said its anyway a good idea to check all possible options in a store BEFORE you buy anything!

That's great. You have access to public information.

I have those cabinets. He should get the 610. For well more reasons than simply increasing his volume (which it will...dramatically), or his low end (which it will...dramatically).

 

[two fingers]

Regarding the published ampeg specs for -3dB points response the OP will get the best clarity and punch with his existing cab cause the -3dB point equals 60Hz.
If he would go with a 610HLF he would get NOT more volume but indeed more of low end which (honestly) is regarded by some folks as rather counterproductive thing within the bandmix.

And I'm very wondering myself what shall now be wrong or right in this regard?
The OP looks for more of low end but instead he gets suggestions not to do it cause it might cause some issues within the bandmix if he would have more of it.
At the other hand side some folks suggest him to go with a 610HLF that actually provides noticeable more of low end than his existing cab.

Personally I think, I do read more of contradictions rather than serious suggestions in this regard.
And I wonder how the OP shall be helped?
If I was in his shoes I'd feel quite confused!

That's because the issue is more complex than simply "more volume" or "more low end". Nobody here (myself included) has THE "solution" to his problem.

1) We don't have enough information.

2) The problem might have absolutely nothing to do with his rig. It could be room physics. It could be that his guitarists fancy themselves bass players and are EQing their guitars down into his territory. It could even be hearing loss due to years of volume wars. We have no idea.

But I know this. It's not as simple as getting just ANY other cab to add to his rig.

 

[brbadg]

Hi All,

Currently playing a fender bassman (master volume) through an ampeg 410 cabinet. All in all, I like the sound, it's fighting against two fuzzy guitars and a pretty heavy hitting drummer. Sometimes though, the low end does get a little lost in our rehearsal room and am wondering if that's something I can remedy with the addition of 15 inch speaker. I've had a look through here and couldn't find a similar thread, apologies admin if one already exists.

Anybody here ever done this before, for what reason and what were the results?

Many thanks in advance.

Tell them to turn the shag down!

 

[Ric5]

Oh, I agree. It would "work". I just don't think it would HELP. There's a big difference.

If the problem is actually a volume war, it would make things worse. He would be fighting fire with gasoline....which could be fun....but also detrimental in the long term.

Ya .... I played in a band with volume wars about 20 years ago ... a hard hitting drummer with a huge set and a full marshall stack ... I got by with a 350 watt Ampeg head and a 2x10 and a 1x18 cab ... but eventually I got tired of the excessive volume and found a better band.

 

[jnewmark]

Tell them to turn the shag down!

The Impossible Dream.

 

[ThisBass]

That's because the issue is more complex than simply "more volume" or "more low end". Nobody here (myself included) has THE "solution" to his problem.

1) We don't have enough information.

2) The problem might have absolutely nothing to do with his rig. It could be room physics. It could be that his guitarists fancy themselves bass players and are EQing their guitars down into his territory. It could even be hearing loss due to years of volume wars. We have no idea.

But I know this. It's not as simple as getting just ANY other cab to add to his rig.

I repeat myself, its a good idea to check all of possible options in a store BEFORE you buy anything.

But its counterproductive to speak warnings about "more of low end" and just the same time suggest a cab that provides decent more of it than his existing one.


I do know the 610HLF and the sound/volume that comes off of it. Its a very decent cab with decent low end but, at the other hand side, rather mediocre sensitivity for a cab of this format and size. And we all do know that a Bassman 135 isn't as powerfull like a SVT amplifier where a rather mediocre sensitivity of the cab wouldn't matter too much!
There is nothing wrong with this cab. But it should be suggested as is, he will perceive more of low end by just same volume/sensitivity versus his existing 410(HE).

 

[Geogio]

I used a subwoofer setup in a jam band I was in for a while it was a JBL, basically a 15 in a reflex cab.

I think if you want that subwoofer kind of B3 pedal sound and low end frequency response a consideration of the cabinet as well as the 15 if needed. Maybe if you can find a cabinet with a blown 15 and grab it.

 

[two fingers]

I repeat myself, its a good idea to check all of possible options in a store BEFORE you buy anything.

But its counterproductive to speak warnings about "more of low end" and just the same time suggest a cab that provides decent more of it than his existing one.


I do know the 610HLF and the sound/volume that comes off of it. Its a very decent cab with decent low end but, at the other hand side, rather mediocre sensitivity for a cab of this format and size. And we all do know that a Bassman 135 isn't as powerfull like a SVT amplifier where a rather mediocre sensitivity of the cab wouldn't matter too much!
There is nothing wrong with this cab. But it should be suggested as is, he will perceive more of low end by just same volume/sensitivity versus his existing 410(HE).

And, oddly enough, you can get more perceived low end from the 610 HLF by putting am HPF in front of it. I've lived it. It's a crazy thing.

 

[ThisBass]

And, oddly enough, you can get more perceived low end from the 610 HLF by putting am HPF in front of it. I've lived it. It's a crazy thing.

If the OP looks for nothing but a 'lil bit more of volume he can easily stay with his existing cab and add a HPF that is set ~55Hz

 

[rtslinger]

You just need a bigger stick get a more powerful amp, benefit more head room and you should be able to compete with all that you have mention 300w or more imo, but remember "With more power comes more responsibility"