To add a 15 inch speaker or not

[Titch]

We need only turn to classic deterrence theory. The OP needs so much reserve wattage that the guitar players will understand that even "going to 11" will result in defeat. For every incremental increase by the guitarists, the OP must respond with resolve in the form earth shaking lows, cutting mids, and a sparkling high end at overwhelming volume. When they realize that a volume war is fruitless they will ask you to turn down. Don't do it! Continue to display your capabilities until a time of your choosing when you can deescalate tensions with a reduction to your desired end state.

(yeah, I agree Rich).

Hahaha absolutely brilliant.
I did exactly the same thing in my Bon Scott band. Constant volume wars. So one day, I did exactly what you described.
What joy it bought to hear the guitarists complaining they were deaf ( lasted three days) during a break in rehearsal... Alas, next rehearsal, they had already forgotten the lesson. Straight back to square 1.

 

[Michael Eisenman]

And, oddly enough, you can get more perceived low end from the 610 HLF by putting am HPF in front of it. I've lived it. It's a crazy thing.

If the OP looks for nothing but a 'lil bit more of volume he can easily stay with his existing cab and add a HPF that is set ~55Hz

I don't think we should assume we know exactly what "more low end" means. You seem to assume it means extending the usable frequency response lower, which is not necessarily the correct. IMHO the frequency ranges between about 70-120hz is where most of our perception of fat lows comes from. In my experience, applying a suitable HPF can tighten up the lows and also increase headroom so a rig sounds louder and more focused down low.

"The filling in phenomenon…is not just a laboratory curiosity; composers exploit this principle as well, knowing that our perception of a melodic line will continue, even if part of it is obscured by other instruments. Whenever we hear the lowest notes on the piano or double bass, we are not actually hearing 27.5 or 35 Hz, because those instruments are typically incapable of producing much energy at these ultralow frequencies: Our ears are filling in the information and giving us the illusion that the tone is that low." (This Is Your Brain On Music, Daniel J. Levitin)

Maybe throwing money at more/bigger speakers is not the first thing to try. Of course, the other players could turn down a bit, as well. In a world…

 

[Heavy_d]

thanks for all the responses and apologies for not coming back sooner. So many great response here that it's hard to answer them all but will go back through the thread and try and answer some.

So the issue isn't volume, it's more the desire to feel the bone rattling intensity of low end that we're after, it's more of a nice to have than a must, to really push those dynamics when playing the lower end. The sound does cut through the general mix. Perhaps the problem is the head, but I really like the general tone of it.

I'm playing a Bassman 100, through the second channel with the deep setting on and a flat eq. I've also got a Sansamp on front of it which I use for both clean and dirty with my preferred tone options set there (6 for bass, 4 for treble). I've another pre-amp on front of that using an active musicman. I've tried a Mark Bass Jazz and a Gibson hollow body 335 Memphis through it, and it yields the same result. I've tried various permutations of these configs (with/without the sans amp, active/passive and playing with the eq).

 

[Heavy_d]

What kind of guitar amps are you up against, and what's the demeanor of the guitarists if you were to ask them to turn down, or use amp shields/baffles if they're in that "I gotta crank it to get my sound, man" mode?
I'll also ask what model/wattage? If you're only running 50-135 watts into that cab, it may be like towing a trailer with a 4-cylinder car.

Thanks Michedelic, up against a Laney Amp/Cab and Mesa Boogie Mark 5/Laney Cab. Interested to know more what you mean by towing a trailer? It's a Bassman 100, so there's plenty of power behind that, the cab is 4ohm.

 

[agedhorse]

100 watts against a Mark V plus whatever else and a drum kit would not in my opinion be considered plenty of power.

What are you calling "flat" on the Bassman?

What does it sound like just plugging into the amp without the external devices? Layering multiple voicings onto a voiced amp can result in unpredictable results similar to what you are experiencing.

 

[Michedelic]

Thanks Michedelic, up against a Laney Amp/Cab and Mesa Boogie Mark 5/Laney Cab. Interested to know more what you mean by towing a trailer? It's a Bassman 100, so there's plenty of power behind that, the cab is 4ohm.

Even in that situation, depending on the sensitivity/efficiency of your drivers, and how many you have (ie, four or eight 10's versus two 15's), 100 watts may not be enough. I'd say you'd need 200 watts, at least, if not more. One of the unfair aspects of bass amplification, and the laws of audio physics, is that you need much more power to generate low frequency waves that will match even the lowliest guitar amp. A Fender Deluxe or Vox AC30 can get very loud.
Not knowing earlier what version of Bassman you had, what I meant by 'towing' was that if you had the classic 50 watt, analogous to a four cylinder car, it may not have enough grunt to do the job.

 

[ctmullins]

Seriously- shove it into a corner and report back.

 

[dspellman]

Hi All,

Currently playing a fender bassman (master volume) through an ampeg 410 cabinet. All in all, I like the sound, it's fighting against two fuzzy guitars and a pretty heavy hitting drummer. Sometimes though, the low end does get a little lost in our rehearsal room and am wondering if that's something I can remedy with the addition of 15 inch speaker. I've had a look through here and couldn't find a similar thread, apologies admin if one already exists.

Anybody here ever done this before, for what reason and what were the results?

A 15" speaker won't add bottom end.

There are two things that will help you, here. One is an amp with more power (bottom end depends on power availability). Another is the consideration that a rehearsal room often doesn't have enough distance from amp to wall for low frequencies to develop.

 

[dspellman]

I don't think we should assume we know exactly what "more low end" means. You seem to assume it means extending the usable frequency response lower, which is not necessarily the correct. IMHO the frequency ranges between about 70-120hz is where most of our perception of fat lows comes from. In my experience, applying a suitable HPF can tighten up the lows and also increase headroom so a rig sounds louder and more focused down low.

Most people here have never experienced a bass rig with relatively flat response down into the 30hz range. Many probably have not even experience flat response to 40hz.

fEARfull cabs seems to have a reputation for powerful, smooth, and extended low end. Looks like they are all down by about 7-8dB by 40hz.

Also I believe these cabs are relatively inefficient, so you need relatively big power to get them loud. Probably not a good choice if the OP is running a vintage Bassman.

My fEARfuls are pretty efficient, but an F115 is definitely louder than an F112. But I'm running them with a 1500W RMS power amplifier that produces about 900W (bridged/mono) at 8 ohms (one cabinet) and 1500W at 4 ohms (bridged/mono, two cabinets). I know I'm not using that much power on a regular basis. An HPF at 35 Hz saves power.

 

[Wasnex]

My fEARfuls are pretty efficient, but an F115 is definitely louder than an F112. But I'm running them with a 1500W RMS power amplifier that produces about 900W (bridged/mono) at 8 ohms (one cabinet) and 1500W at 4 ohms (bridged/mono, two cabinets). I know I'm not using that much power on a regular basis. An HPF at 35 Hz saves power.

These cabs use the LF versions of Eminence Kappalite.
Sensitivity Ratings:
3015LF = 98.4dB 1W/1m
3012LF = 95.5dB 1W/1m

IMHO, if you only have 100W (like the OP), you probably want more efficient cabs.

For comparison:
Subway 112 = 97.5dB 1W/1m
Subway 115 = 98.5dB 1W/1m
Ampeg 810E =100dB 1W/1m
Subway 410 = 100.4dB 1W/1m
Bergantino NXV410 = 102dB 1W/1m. Bergantino lists the spec as 105dB 2.83V (2.83V at 4 ohms = 2W).
Aguilar DB810 = 104dB 1W/1m

 

[dspellman]

These cabs use the LF versions of Eminence Kappalite.
Sensitivity Ratings:
3015LF = 98.4dB 1W/1m
3012LF = 95.5dB 1W/1m

IMHO, if you only have 100W (like the OP), you probably want more efficient cabs.

For comparison:
Subway 112 = 97.5dB 1W/1m
Subway 115 = 98.5dB 1W/1m
Ampeg 810E =100dB 1W/1m
Subway 410 = 100.4dB 1W/1m
Bergantino NXV410 = 102dB 1W/1m. Bergantino lists the spec as 105dB 2.83V (2.83V at 4 ohms = 2W).
Aguilar DB810 = 104dB 1W/1m

If you only have 100W (like the OP), you probably want more wattage. While the sensitivity rating for the Kappalite is correct, the overall production of the F115 cabinet belies that rating. I've often wondered about sensitivity ratings, because there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of consensus on how they're produced. Most seem to select a single frequency (say, 1000 Hz) that makes them look good, and it's mostly not stated what that frequency is. So it's a bit difficult to determine its relevance.

Another issue germaine to the above sensitivity ratings is that while the rating for the Kappalite is for the speaker itself in air, there's no comparison for what the cabinet is doing for that speaker (the ratings for the Bergantino and Aguilar are likely for the full cabinet plus speakers, no?) or for the contributions of the two additional speakers in the F115 cabinet.

 

[Passinwind]

I've often wondered about sensitivity ratings, because there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of consensus on how they're produced. Most seem to select a single frequency (say, 1000 Hz) that makes them look good, and it's mostly not stated what that frequency is. So it's a bit difficult to determine its relevance.

From the Eminence website: Understanding Loudspeaker Data

 

[dspellman]

From the Eminence website: Understanding Loudspeaker Data

Yup, I understand what sensitivity means. Eminence states that it measures sensitivity across the range of frequencies at which its speaker will be used. The range of frequencies for the LF series is about 40-1.5Khz. Other manufacturers test for sensitivity at, occasionally, a single frequency. It takes at least four times the power to produce the same volume at 40Hz that it does at 80Hz, an octave up. If another manufacturer tests for sensitivity at 1000Hz (a fairly common scenario), you don't have a reasonable comparison.

It gets better. If you put a speaker in a cabinet, that cabinet can affect the volume output significantly. If you've got a manufacturer who's testing for sensitivity of the overall cabinet and speaker combination, that sensitivity changes. We're all aware that a couple of 12" speakers in a horn-loaded cabinet *can* produce subwoofer output well beyond an 18" in a bass reflex cabinet -- the cabinet changes everything.

The previous post pitted the sensitivity claim for the 3015LF (for example) as a speaker against fully-realized cabinets with the speakers inside. Again, not a reasonable comparison, and we have no idea of the range of frequencies used for those cabinets. We can speculate, but we don't know. Leastways not in that post.

 

[Passinwind]

Yup, I understand what sensitivity means. Eminence states that it measures sensitivity across the range of frequencies at which its speaker will be used. The range of frequencies for the LF series is about 40-1.5Khz. Other manufacturers test for sensitivity at, occasionally, a single frequency. It takes at least four times the power to produce the same volume at 40Hz that it does at 80Hz, an octave up. If another manufacturer tests for sensitivity at 1000Hz (a fairly common scenario), you don't have a reasonable comparison..

I haven't seen anybody reputable test that way in many years as far as I can remember (hah!), who is still doing that?

................................................................thanks,

 

[dspellman]

I haven't seen anybody reputable test that way in many years as far as I can remember (hah!), who is still doing that?

................................................................thanks,

I can't do it publicly, but I can suggest that my testing doesn't match some folks' results. Their marketing wonks may have better testing equipment? It's sort of the same in tube amps. "Four of these tubes has always meant this many wattseses."

 

[Passinwind]

I can't do it publicly, but I can suggest that my testing doesn't match some folks' results. Their marketing wonks may have better testing equipment? It's sort of the same in tube amps. "Four of these tubes has always meant this many wattseses."

Roger that, I test many many things and what mostly matters to me is comparing relative readings using the same tools and methodology. If you put the T-S parameters in any number of modeling programs you'll see substantially lower SPL numbers than the specs suggest, FWIW.

 

[Wasnex]

If you only have 100W (like the OP), you probably want more wattage. While the sensitivity rating for the Kappalite is correct, the overall production of the F115 cabinet belies that rating. I've often wondered about sensitivity ratings, because there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of consensus on how they're produced. Most seem to select a single frequency (say, 1000 Hz) that makes them look good, and it's mostly not stated what that frequency is. So it's a bit difficult to determine its relevance.

Another issue germaine to the above sensitivity ratings is that while the rating for the Kappalite is for the speaker itself in air, there's no comparison for what the cabinet is doing for that speaker (the ratings for the Bergantino and Aguilar are likely for the full cabinet plus speakers, no?) or for the contributions of the two additional speakers in the F115 cabinet.

The pair of 3015LFs in an F215 should have a combined sensitivity rating of 101.4. For comparison, the pair of 15PR400s in a Dually should have a combined sensitivity rating of 102dB 1W/1m. Both are on the high side. I own a Dually and it get's loud enough with 100W for me to do a lot of gigs. Given the OP's dilemma, I would take a bigger amp.

In contrasts, I have seen several threads that indicate confusion and disappointment with the max SPL of the single 12 models. Also many of these threads indicate the cabs are being driven beyond Xmax. So the lowish (95.5dB) sensitivity rating of the 3012LF should be a concern, especially with only 100W.

FYI Scabbey Road lists the price for a new F215 at $1,800. AFAIK that is the actual price.

 

[dspellman]

The pair of 3015LFs in an F215 should have a combined sensitivity rating of 101.4. For comparison, the pair of 15PR400s in a Dually should have a combined sensitivity rating of 102dB 1W/1m. Both are on the high side. I own a Dually and it get's loud enough with 100W for me to do a lot of gigs. Given the OP's dilemma, I would take a bigger amp.

In contrasts, I have seen several threads that indicate confusion and disappointment with the max SPL of the single 12 models. Also many of these threads indicate the cabs are being driven beyond Xmax. So the lowish (95.5dB) sensitivity rating of the 3012LF should be a concern, especially with only 100W.

FYI Scabbey Road lists the price for a new F215 at $1,800. AFAIK that is the actual price.

Thanks -- for all of that. The F112 does a pretty good job at what it's designed for, and my expectation for it has always been that it will produce less volume than the F115s with the same wattage input.

 

[Marko 1]

...get a little lost in our rehearsal room

...

I didn't read the whole thread, so I don't know if anyone mentioned this.

It might be the room, "standing waves", certain frequencies cancel out and such; the rig may be delivering, but you're not able to hear it.

 

[ctmullins]

...

I didn't read the whole thread, so I don't know if anyone mentioned this.

It might be the room, "standing waves", certain frequencies cancel out and such; the rig may be delivering, but you're not able to hear it.

Yep.

I'm still waiting to hear what happened when (if??) the OP pushed the cab into a corner....