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To Drag or Not to Drag?

P

Paul4703

Mar 19, 2007
71
3
#1
Hi,

From different books I'm using to learn bass I'm getting varying advice on how to use the right hand fingers to pluck the strings.

One book advises alternating the fingers when moving across the strings in either direction. The other prefers alternating fingers when going from lower strings to higher but using the same finger when moving from the higher sounding string to the lower (dragging). Which would you say is the best method?

Cheers,

Paul.
 
#2
That's books for you... people writing down what works for them and why.
differnt people , different opinions.
For me it depends on the specific situation but usually I alternate and don't "drag".
I'd say find out for yourself what works for you and why and in what situations etc.
that way all you do will make sense to you.
 
#5
Dragging ultimately will let you play faster.

Dragging when you "descend" is all about conservation of motion. The finger you just used on the higher string is already in position to sound the next one. Why waste time moving it off the string just to pluck the string with your other finger?

Once you practice scales enough with it you forget about it and its second nature.

-Rav
 
#6
I am very firmly in the strict alternation camp. I don't believe that dragging (or raking as it's usually known) has any advantages over strict alternation, especially if you're playing something with a lot of fast notes all together and a lot of string skipping. If you've got a good alternating motion going, throwing a rake in there is going to stop its momentum and throw your timing off. That's why when I took lessons from Dave LaRue that he demanded that I never rake, and I noticed the improvement playing difficult stuff right away.

Economy of motion is the usual reason rakers give for doing it, but if that economy of motion throws you off in a difficult passage, what good is it? So for that reason, I almost always strictly alternate, even if it's something easy.

Of course, that always makes the rakers really mad when I say that, and I've gotten into huge arguments on here about it. So if you want to rake, you just go and rake your little heart out. But nobody's yet been able to convince me of the advantages of raking, and when I've suggested to people that they stop raking and do strict alternation, those who do it for a solid month and work at getting good at it always (and I mean ALWAYS) report an improvement in their overall playing, and especially when they do faster stuff.
 
#7
I'll let NHOP explain the technical merits of raking technique.



Granted, NHOP is a special case, because he just isn't human. Since our argument a year or two ago I've come to find two things - in passages where every single note must be articulated, strict alternation really is the best course of action, I'll totally agree with you there. Sixteenth note funk lines, string-skips, unisons with the band, and other kinds of miscellaneous stuff all sound cleaner with strict alternation, simply because of the fact that you're getting a more consistent attack on every note. However, when I'm soloing, I don't care so much about strict alternation because it leads itself to a "NOTENOTENOTENOTENOTE" mentality with articulation. If you're playing an uptempo tune, a sax player won't tongue every single note he plays - its going to sound very choppy and unmusical. Why, then, do bass players insist on plucking every single note? I subscribe to more of a "Jeff Berlin" (god help me for invoking his name here, haha) approach, where a lot of my shedding time is spent developing legato technique. Integral to this is the rake. You can play a whole hell of a lot of notes far faster and cleaner than with SA just with one finger if your left hand been trained well enough and the coordination between the hands has been developed. It also sounds more musical than "ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta". Variety articulation is something that is very important in the development of musicianship, but often us bass players loose sight of that.
 
#8
I'd vote for practicing both to the point of proficiency/second-nature as they each have their merits;You can get around faster by raking, but strict alternating is more even sounding and usually fuller and groovier and a good foundation for newer players.

I saw a great clinic with Gary Willis years ago, and his advice was to never limit yourself to one technique and to refine as many skills as possible, then the things that work best for you will rise to the top as you create your style. He's an incredible player (and humble and cool too) with cutting edge technique that has infulenced most of today's elite electric jazz players.
 
#9
Watching that video just depresses the crap out of me because they're both dead now, and because they're so amazingly talented. Holy cow, do I suck on upright! But fortunately I mostly play music where it's not important ;)

Anyway, I saw him rake on the "easy" stuff, but when it came to the quick 16th notes, he was all about SA. Superhuman SA with 3 fingers, but SA nonetheless.
 
#10
JimmyM said:
Watching that video just depresses the crap out of me because they're both dead now, and because they're so amazingly talented. Holy cow, do I suck on upright! But fortunately I mostly play music where it's not important ;)

Anyway, I saw him rake on the "easy" stuff, but when it came to the quick 16th notes, he was all about SA. Superhuman SA with 3 fingers, but SA nonetheless.
Click to expand...

NHOP was notorious for raking with three fingers, he really was raking all that. Watch again.
 
#12
Yeah, I see more raking this time than last, but he still had the SA thing down extremely well. It wasn't for lack of skill at it that he didn't do it. He could have SA'd it all if he wanted. People who have skills with both SA and raking can do it any way they want. But raking is easier to get down, so people don't bother with practicing SA, therefore they'll never know the benefit. And that's why I don't understand the rakers always saying it's the way to go. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But if you haven't mastered SA, you'll never know.
 
#13
azarias said:
Why not practice both methods until you can comfortably play any passage with either technique ?
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. I personally use alternating but also love to rake/drag every now and again. For me. alternating presents a better attack in the string than a rake/drag. Howeverm when I am grooving and want a quick flair or something, I will rake the strings and then go back to alternating. But learn both, there is more than enough room multiple styles.
 
#14
JimmyM said:
Yeah, I see more raking this time than last, but he still had the SA thing down extremely well. It wasn't for lack of skill at it that he didn't do it. He could have SA'd it all if he wanted. People who have skills with both SA and raking can do it any way they want. But raking is easier to get down, so people don't bother with practicing SA, therefore they'll never know the benefit. And that's why I don't understand the rakers always saying it's the way to go. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. But if you haven't mastered SA, you'll never know.
Click to expand...

This is all kind of moot point, since SA is actually a lot more awkward/uncharacteristic on the upright bass given the angle of the fingers and the nature of the pluck (use of the entire arm versus just the fingers on most strokes). However, the point remains, NHOP raked lines that anybody would have a bitch of a time doing SA on electric, nevermind upright.

Like I was saying earlier, they're actually two separate techniques belonging to two separate "modes of play", legato and staccato. Staccato in this case doesn't mean literally the articulation of staccato, but just the general mindset that every note is articulated so you hear every attack. A lot of people approach this debate from the notion that "staccato" performance is the only way to go and that right hand technique is paramount to playing fast or cleanly without factoring in the left hand. Once you get the left hand working for you, raking becomes an important part of legato technique because of the subtle differences in the attack from going string to string. It's vitally important to

One good exercise highlighting the difference is to play a major scale two octaves articulating every note, and then play it two octaves articulating notes only when necessary (string changes). If either one sounds less clean than the other, then that's the kind of performance you need to work on. Chances are, its the latter.
 
#16
Personally, i'm getting more and more against dragging or raking mostly due to playing acoustic guitar. Classical guitar is taught to use each finger on a particular string, really different approach to playing a bass guitar after attempting classical guitar. Really builds speed. Nothing against dragging, though. Its easy, effective, and efficient to do.
 
#17
magyk8ball said:
Personally, i'm getting more and more against dragging or raking mostly due to playing acoustic guitar. Classical guitar is taught to use each finger on a particular string, really different approach to playing a bass guitar after attempting classical guitar. Really builds speed. Nothing against dragging, though. Its easy, effective, and efficient to do.
Click to expand...

I find that really interesting to say because when I play guitar i go to a strict PIMA to a string and classical style with my right hand (hand is more parallel to strings and I don't plant my thumb). As soon as I go to bass though I plant my thumb and don't have a strict PIMA at all. My question is:
Do you play one finger to one string while playing bass as in how you would do it with a classical guitar?
 
#18
I prefer raking, personally, because I tend to use it pretty heavily as a tonal trick- raking with all four fingers in quick succession over a chord, for example.

I've always had a problem with strictly alternating when playing from high-too-low, but that's just me.
 
#19
ohhhman... there are some really heated threads about this topic and i have participated in some of them.

prior to tb i didn't even know there were "camps" on this issue. i realized that i was a raking bassist. after seeing all the support for strict alternation, i decided to work it into my practice sessions one summer.

at the time i was really into michael manring's music and i'd visit his forum frequently. he supported strict alternation. i figured that there might be something to it. i used some lessons that adam nitti had on his website to get me started.

wow, it made a huge difference in my accuracy... especially in faster passages with string crossing. i do still rake on occasion, but it's usually for a percussive effect/ghost note.

i'm really happy that i took the time needed to work it into my technique.

peace,
joe
 

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