Double Bass To Kay or not to Kay . . .

[Ed Fuqua]

I'd say stop LOOKING at basses and start LISTENING to them. It kind of doesn't matter WHAT the bass is if it has the sound you want.

 

[james condino]

Is there anything you can add James?

Ed summed it up very well: You've read all of the threads and opinions....now it is time to turn off your computer and make a decision for yourself!!! This thread is starting to circle the drain, just like every time the conversation comes up.

For me, a HUGE part of the conversation that almost always gets overlooked is that a half-deaf 60 year old who has been working with a chopsaw and heavy equipment all of their life (or in a rock band, guns, chainsaws, genetics, or whatever else you want to insert that contributes to hearing loss) simply hears things completely different than someone who is 20 and still has most of their hearing. I honestly feel that has as much to do with most of these opinions as the actual instrument being discussed. Our hearing is very individualized.

For me, I build a lot of very expensive fully carved instruments. I also happen to live in western North Carolina. Having a business model whereby one side of it focues on vintage Kay and plywood basses just makes good sense. It is very similar to having a vintage Volkswagon shop in Portland or San Francisco. They made thousands of them, they are readily accessable to the common person, they get the job done, and they are easy to maintain. I and a lot of other people like the funky vintage vibe and mojo. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of old Kays here within less than an hour drive. If I lived in NYC or Boston, I'd probably spend most of my time working on vintage Italian instruments.

One of the things I love about old Kays is the type of person who generally plays them. They tend to be very laid back, play in a couple of bar bands, like to drink beer, and they laugh a lot. They are a lot of fun to have around the shop. Their investment is just enough so that they take care of it, and not so much that they don't mind getting it dirty or playing out in public. Real instruments for real people. I'll take that any day over some uptight high maintenance sissy with an attitude who happens to have a very expensive old bass! Almost every one of our "bass heros" has owned an old Kay at some point and it helped them get to where they are now. I agree with many of the structural comments and neck issues, but you can work around all of these pretty easy to tailor the instrument exactly to your style and body geometry.

If someone likes old Kays and it will help them start playing the bass, encourage them, instead of the constant hazing and Kaybashing. My haircut (or lack of hair), shoes, and most other things are different than theirs, but I don't go around hassling them over it. It is the same thing when some old crusty classical player starts slandering vintage AlCoA aluminum basses to some young kid with blue hair who wants to play it electrified in a rock band with a lazer light show and flashpots going off. The whole reason I play and build nice carved basses today is because along time ago, a beat up old ply bass got me into the instrument; prior to that I acknowledge that without playing very loud, distorted electic guitar in heavy metal bands in the early '80s, I'd have never evolved into playing double bass in bebop and Django bands today. You have MORE than enough information and opinions now.Turn off your computer, make a decision, and own up to it! Any bass is better than no bass and in a years worth of gigs, I can use an old Kay to make enough $$$ to buy a nice carved vintage bass if that's what I decide I want, and I can resell the Kay for $100 more than what I bought it for. Try doing that with anything made in China that is secondhand....

On a side note, sometime later this year I should have a nice new book available that will focus on vintage US ply bass repair and restorations and all of the things I do that can fix, correct, and improve any issues you have with your old Kay and how to get the best performance you can out of one, all for less than the price of a single string or a soundpost adjustment at a busy metropolitain shop (the book, not when you ask me to do it!). For anyone who has not seen it, the Guild of american Luthiers published a two issue, 20+ page article series from the workshop I gave in Seattle two years ago on vintage plywood bass restoration in American Lutherie Magazine this past year.

Did I mention turn off you computer and get playing your bass? That's where I'm headed...

j.
www.kaybassrepair.com
www.condino.com

 

[bassfat]

In Downtown Asheville tonight there were multiple Kays in action and they were all being played by people who Freaking LOVE it! A great night..I just got home!!! And I didn't even play my Bass!...And James Condino...It's an honor to be his friend! He's the man...

 

[MollyKay]

One of the things I love about old Kays is the type of person who generally plays them. They tend to be very laid back, play in a couple of bar bands, like to drink beer, and they laugh a lot. They are a lot of fun to have around the shop. Their investment is just enough so that they take care of it, and not so much that they don't mind getting it dirty or playing out in public. Real instruments for real people. I'll take that any day over some uptight high maintenance sissy with an attitude who happens to have a very expensive old bass! Almost every one of our "bass heros" has owned an old Kay at some point and it helped them get to where they are now.

That describes my circle of music and friends. We drove 82 miles last night in 14 degree cold temps to play bass with a bunch of our "greatest generation". Did not worry one bit about my bass.

Perfect...thank you james

 

[martinc]

For an example of how good a Kay bass can sound in the hands of a wonderful player...check out Ben Isaacs. He uses Spirocore regulars.
Jazz great Keter Betts had two pre-war Kays (and a Juzek) and was a Super-Sensitive string endorser.
These two guys never seem to have a problem with the thin necks on the Kay....can't figure out why I do though.
So I agree with Ed Fuqua. If a Kay gives you the sound you want then do it.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

So I agree with Ed Fuqua. If a Kay gives you the sound you want then do it.

That's not really what I said.

 

[martinc]

Ed:

That's not what I said either.
I said I agreed with your post.
The rest ( ...do it") was my comment.
My apologies for not making the second sentence a little more separate from the first.

 

[drurb]

James,

I agree with your thoughtful post, except for this part:

...For me, a HUGE part of the conversation that almost always gets overlooked is that a half-deaf 60 year old who has been working with a chopsaw and heavy equipment all of their life (or in a rock band, guns, chainsaws, genetics, or whatever else you want to insert that contributes to hearing loss) simply hears things completely different than someone who is 20 and still has most of their hearing. I honestly feel that has as much to do with most of these opinions as the actual instrument being discussed. Our hearing is very individualized.

Someone with substantial hearing loss may certainly hear things differently. Gross abnormalities aside, there is absolutely no reason to believe that normal presbycusis alters preferences for DB sound one wit. What you have not taken into account is the phenomenon of adaptation to those changes that can be expected to occur as a matter of course. The truth is, although those not close to the subject may find it intuitive to believe, our hearing is not "very individualized" at all. While preferences certainly vary among normal-hearing individuals, absolute sensitivity, differential sensitivity, and a host of perceptual measures across many dimensions reveal an astonishing homogeneity among humans. It's really remarkable. All this is to say that I do not believe the evidence supports the notion that aging and/or inter-individual differences are substantial factors contributing to the differences of opinion with regard to DB sound.

 

[james condino]

Ok. I openly acknowledge your point of view on this subject and am NOT trying to be confrontational; more anecdotal. I made the statement from a lot of front row experience where I had a hard living old fellow sitting next to a clean livin' young guy sitting next to me (as the middle aged guy) in the shop and all all three of us heard very different responses from the instrument, regardless of where we stood in the room or near the instruments. I play in a gypsy swing quartet where one of the fellows ( yup, the guy close to 70) regularly has his vintage amp feedback, squeel, and make all sorts of horrible noises so much that the rest of us (all much younger) go nuts yelling at him to turn it off and he just sits there playing and squawking away oblivious to what the rest of us are hearing. I find it has a much more observable effect when you go up into the higher registers, especially when you get to the mandolin range, but it still seems very real from a non- quantitative, non -scientific observations. One person will claim it has no bass, the other will say it has too much treble, and the third will say that the midrange is too punchy. Kind of like when you ask 10 luthiers their opinion and you get 17 different answers....

Would you agree that certain experiences can destroy specific frequency ranges? I know folks who don't seem to notice gunshots anymore from prolonged overexposure; construction workers who never use hearing protection with routers and it does not bother them; iron workers who can slam steel on steel without and distress.... Whaddya think Keith Richards hearing is like after a lifetime of playing with the Rolling Stones? Your mileage and results may vary.

j.

 

[drurb]

James,

You are quite correct that, once hearing-loss becomes substantial, the experiences you related can be expected. I didn't realize that when you said "half-deaf," you really did mean someone with a substantial deficit as opposed to meaning that any 60-year-old can be expected to be half-deaf. This was contained within my answer:

Someone with substantial hearing loss may certainly hear things differently. Gross abnormalities aside, there is absolutely no reason to believe that normal presbycusis alters preferences for DB sound one wit.

I guess I didn't catch the full gist of what you were saying because my answer was really directed toward people with mild-loss and those with essentially normal-hearing.

So, let's start over. Yes, indeed, someone with substantial loss is likely to hear things differently. Such are the gross abnormalities that I was setting aside in my response. In fact, the quantitative and scientific evidence supports what you said and your anecdotes are entirely consistent with it.

Most hearing-loss, especially that resulting from the types of noise exposure you listed, affects the upper end of the spectrum with the region of 4 kHz being particularly vulnerable. So, yes, you'd expect that 70 year-old guy with loss to not even notice his squealing amp while you all go crazy. There is even what is referred to as a "shotgun loss." People who have fired shotguns without adequate protection will often end up with a "notched" loss at 4 kHz in the ear on the side of the shoulder where the gun was held. When you see that in the clinic or lab, it's interesting to ask, "So, when did you fire a shotgun or rifle?" Then you watch as people look at you with amazement at your having seen into their pasts.

As for basses, if one has developed preferences and then, over time, develops a substantial hearing-loss, adaptation can get swamped and a DB that sounded so good decades back may just not do it anymore.

Adding to this is the little-appreciated fact that hearing-loss is about so much more than just attenuating (turning down) certain frequencies. There are usually other extremely important changes that take place that are not at all captured by measuring "hearing-loss" by an audiogram.

Sorry for taking this OT. The bottom line is that you are spot on with regard to how preferences can be expected to be affected in the face of serious hearing-loss.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Ed:

That's not what I said either.
I said I agreed with your post.

It must have been two other guys.

 

[wearp]

I have a late 30s Kay - a very early Alvin Hawes model and love it. I play mostly classical and my main axe is a mid-19th C Italian bass. I use the Kay for outdoor gigs. The sound of the Kay is a bit on the bright side with the bow (as plywoods tend to be), but not unpleasant at all. The sound is focused and projects well. I've played the Engelhardts, and IMHO they do not sound as good as the older Kays. My Kay instrument is healthy and durable and hasn't needed any major repairs in the 20 years that I have owned it. I have played some King basses that sound pretty good, but I think there is a reason the Kay basses are popular with players. Just my $.02...

 

[buffalobillh]

I had a '63 Kay for about 20 years. I used plain guts, and it was the sound for me. Maybe not your style of music, but here are a couple of samples from our second tribute album to Tommy Duncan:

I Was Just Walking Out the Door

I'm Through Wasting Time On You

Got a Letter from My Kid Today

 

[Feral Feline]

... Any bass is better than no bass ...

+1

... I can resell the Kay for $100 more than what I bought it for. Try doing that with anything made in China that is secondhand.... ...

Emperor Qin and his men are not pleased with your blanket assessment of Chinese craftsmanship.
They'd like you to reconsider and purchase some Terracotta pottery. No? Perhaps a Ming vase?

... On a side note, sometime later this year I should have a nice new book ...

Pre-order with Paypal or Visa?

Cheers,
FF

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

The Chinese were just ahead of the Egyptians in terms of interring their living gods. I've always been very impressed with that toumb. Nice thread derail.

 

[Feral Feline]

Au contraire, Kungfusheriff, the Qin Tomb and the Terracotta Warriors reference is not a derail, it speaks to the implication made about Chinese-made basses – "Try doing that with anything made in China that is secondhand". Shen, Eastman and others are making fine basses that may indeed sell "used" for more than the original purchase price, some day.

The real derail is my attempt to acquire Mr Condino's upcoming book. (Which is about Kays, so sort of still on topic)

 

[JTassoni]

Does anyone know is Kay ever made carved basses?

 

[martinc]

Does anyone know is Kay ever made carved basses?

No. Lots of stuff online eg: Invalid Link Removed

 

[Acoop]

Man you really opened a real Pandora's Box of Kay opinion here. ... There seems to be a trend for old Kay's price tag to really climb over the last few years. ... But, there's lots of older German ply uprights, with ebony fretboards, around I'd suggest you also search out and consider. ... I've owned a few old Kay's, the first I bought from a local school board for $80, but she needed a lot of attention, with the intent of keeping and playing them but eventually just pass them on. ...
If this is your first upright I'd suggest taking an experienced player along with you, if you can. ... Owning an upright bass and playing it well are two different things.