Too Many Notes?

[bopeuph]

As a freelance musician, I've taken the "less is more" approach more seriously.

Having studied jazz as my base, I certainly had a problem playing too much. After losing enough gigs to guys that I was "a better player than," I rethought my strategy, and made sure that everything I was playing locked in with the drummer and played the changes nicely. It always gets more smiles from the bandleader. I now have a lot of gigs where I'm replacing the guy that noodles too much on his bass, and while he probably has more chops than I do, the bands always say they worry every night when a player like that is on stage, since they don't know what's going to happen. In jazz, you live for those moments. In more pop-centered music, you don't. Even playing a fill every four measures could step on others' toes, and if everyone tries a fill at the same time, the groove is lost.

One of the best pieces of advice I got came from a B-3 player, telling me I should treat rock and other pop genres more like classical than jazz. From then on, I stopped trying to play like Jaco, and looked at Jamerson. Then I took another step back and started looking at Duck Dunn. The calls came more frequently.

The best compliments I've gotten lately are that I "play the song, and not the bass."

As the bassist, you're trying to make the other musicians happy. If they want you to play more, go nuts. But even Victor preaches to bass players to err on the side of simplicity, and that he only plays the notes he does, because that's what his clients hired him to do.

Sometimes, it might not be that you're playing too many notes, but that when you play those notes, the groove has a hiccup. The band notices that, and if your foundation isn't strong enough when you play a fill, they're going to tell you it's too busy. Other times, if it's a cover, many musicians are going to want to grab on to the basslines they're used to hearing.

Sounds like you enjoy playing with the older guys, but they like simplicity. You might want to play what they ask for, and supplement your chops to another project that lets you open up more. But only if you want to keep the gigs with the older guys going.

 

[202dy]

You get paid by the hour not by the note.

 

[callofcthulhu]

 

[tleebassist11]

Playing "too many notes" is subjective to the musicality of the bassist. Oteil Burbridge for example can be playing behind a soloist in a classic rock setting (or any genre) and be playing a million percolating notes and it only propel the music to a higher level. Any bassist can get away playing "too many notes" if they are consciously basing all of there musical decisions on the "feel" and harmonic movement of the song. Some players do "their thing" with a simple role of never incorporating a lot of technical aspects, and some bassists like Oteil can really be tastefully busy and it make the music shine brighter.....I strive for the latter
Just my two cents

 

[pbassjbass]

What's the bass part, are you playing it? It's easy to fall into the trap of playing the other lines (keyboard, bari-sax, rhythm guitar, etc, especially missing percussion, for me) when it feels like something is missing and there's a hole to be filled. I try to ask myself when I feel that way, am I playing the bass line? The other missing parts are not my problem.

 

[LT131]

Depends on the genre, the song, and what your drummer's playing. I think that some musicians, not just bassists and myself for about the first 25 years of my experience, are afraid to leave space in the song. Some songs need space to promote melody and rhythm.

My experience has been solely rock/roots type stuff. I've gotten more gigs and compliments since learning to listen and give space when appropriate. It's easier too.

 

[Flabass]

When I first started playing bass I was very basic in my playing, usually playing the root notes. I had some working musicians that were friends and I always thought I didn't play enough notes. Then I got into John Entwistle. Then I got into listening to the bass parts of songs and I try an replicate as best I can. But I still have trouble holding back, especially on country tunes. So, I just do the best I can.

 

[Nev375]

How many notes you play has little to do with it. The issue is usually in the head of the person complaining. Truth be told, they likely don't know what it is they don't like about your playing, it's just not what they expected to hear.

One time I got a comment like this and i just changed my tone by rolling off all the treble and played the exact same thing. He said "That's better, keep playing that line instead." I think some guys just want a bassist that is seen and felt but not actually heard.

 

[bench]

 

[Whousedtoplay]

If less is more, then doing nothing is the pinnacle.

I thought, that expression was, "To say MORE with Less", not to say NOTHING.

 

[dalkowski]

older guys who came of age in the 60's...

... should give a close listen to the music they grew up with. They will hear many melodic bass lines that may well be classified as "busy."

 

[Ox Boris]

Wow, the "fortifying" Zen guys really got to you, didn't they? Don't let anybody tell you what's more important, mate. That's your decision. But it probably is the music, maybe your music!
Be yourself and enjoy it, man! Play to the band you're in and do the job they employed you to do, that's just good form But if you feel like the dominant musician, you might just be right. Don't die with the music in you. Find a band that will let you be yourself.

 

[bolophonic]

The older I get, the less I overplay. Sometimes that means creating movement with less notes, or creatively positioning myself in the arrangement to create a simulacrum of complexity instead of just adding extra notes.

I'm a meat-and-potatoes, serve-the-song type of player, so I try to drive the song with very little flash.

 

[DWBass]

I haven't heard you play but I'll say this............if they say you're a bit on the busy side.....you probably are. I get the self expression thing though. But sometimes it just doesn't work. I listened to another TB member's recordings he did with his church group. The songs were amazing and well recorded and could have maybe been picked up by a label and all that jazz. It was ruined by his really busy playing. All the other instruments and vocals were very professionally done but his playing ruined it for me. You have to find a balance. Self expression is fine as long as it fits. If you're going to be self serving most of the time, you may not be a good fit for a band. Just my opinion with decades of experience from back in the early 70's.

Take it with a grain of salt though as it is just my opinion.

 

[lfmn16]

Thanks and for the record it was only a few comments from a few older musicians in the audience and at first I chalked it up as a "generational" thing, as bass playing in general has evolved since the 50's and 60's and I came of age in the progressive 80's era. However as mentioned previously, upon self reflection I find it to be true to some degree and will work on it.

I don't think I'd do too much self-reflection over some comments from some guy in the audience. There is nothing wrong with periodically taking stock of your playing, but there will always be someone who doesn't like the way you play.

On another note, I don't know why you agreed that the music is more important than self expression. You are expressing yourself through your music, the song is just a vehicle. This 'serve the song' nonsense is just another way for people to try to justify why you should play the way THEY want you to. If I hear the bass line one way and you hear it another, your style is no more valid than mine and mine is no more valid than yours.

Think how lackluster bass playing would be if Chris Squire, Geddy Lee, John Entwistle, Victor Wooten, Larry Graham, etc., etc., etc. had played bass the way they were SUPPOSED to play.

 

[interp]

IMO one must always serve the music. Lee Sklar has said it well on many occasions and is a master at this. I most admire players who could, if they wanted, play thousands of interesting notes. But don't.

David Hungate was once asked how he comes up with bass lines in the studio. He said that first he figures out the minimum number of notes that will help make the song work. Then he plays half those notes.

 

[interp]

I don't think I'd do too much self-reflection over some comments from some guy in the audience. There is nothing wrong with periodically taking stock of your playing, but there will always be someone who doesn't like the way you play.

On another note, I don't know why you agreed that the music is more important than self expression. You are expressing yourself through your music, the song is just a vehicle. This 'serve the song' nonsense is just another way for people to try to justify why you should play the way THEY want you to. If I hear the bass line one way and you hear it another, your style is no more valid than mine and mine is no more valid than yours.

Think how lackluster bass playing would be if Chris Squire, Geddy Lee, John Entwistle, Victor Wooten, Larry Graham, etc., etc., etc. had played bass the way they were SUPPOSED to play.

Serving the song does not mean 'dumbing down the song' and it may indeed mean playing a lot of notes. Prestia, Lee, Entwhistle, Wooten, etc. are in fact excellent examples of 'serving the song.' They're not playing a lot of notes just for the sake of playing a lot of notes; they're playing what they believe serves the song. I've never heard it suggested by anyone that they're SUPPOSED to play any other way.

 

[oldcatfish]

The real issue is this....is your band happy with your playing? If they are, then I wouldn't worry too much about what the others have said. You should consider what they said and listen to a recording of your gig, but being an "arm chair quarterback" is easy.

I have been told the same thing by a couple of other bass players....yet I was playing something that was actually a very close match to the original line. And I am really not much more than an Adam Clayton (U2) type of player anyway; I'm definitely no Geddy Lee or Steve Harris. Just because the other players are more experienced, doesn't mean that they are better bass players.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Having studied jazz as my base, I certainly had a problem playing too much.
In jazz, you live for those moments ... the groove is lost.

I'd like some clarification about your statement.
"If it's not "swinging" it's not jazz."
What is "swing"?
"In jazz and related musical styles, the term swing is used to describe the sense of propulsive rhythmic "feel" or "groove" created by the musical interaction between the performers, especially when the music creates a "visceral response" such as feet-tapping or head-nodding (see pulse)."

Taken from here:
The Total Jazz Bassist

My question.
How is possible that a JAZZ BASS PLAYER could be without GROOVE/SWING?

Next.
In swing jazz basslines are often created from a continuous sequence of quarter notes in a mostly scalar, stepwise part called a "walking bass line".

My question.
What would happen to a bass player who starts adding way too many different lengths notes in Swing Jazz?

 

[FirewalZ]

Thanks for all the Great advice...Like I mentioned previously I believe this is just a phase im in as I am regaining playing ability after taking several years off. I do believe in putting the overall sound of the band first and will work on being a bit less self indulgent However to put it in context as another had said, I am a weekend warrior with a full time Corporate type job, wife and a bunch of kids, so I don't play for Money or prestige and usually small local bars. For me having 1 night a week immersed in live music, jamming, having a few drinks with bandmates, etc is something I look forward to all week and sometimes I'll admit I sometimes blow off "too much steam" Again, thanks for all the advice and I will continue to "improve" my approach while still having fun at the same time....