I have dramatically changed what I do during a given song after hearing a recording of me playing it. In one instance in particular, as I was playing the song I was like "Oh baby! I am Killin It!"......... When I heard the recording I was like "What the hell was I doing?"
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Too Many Notes?
- Thread starter FirewalZ
- Start date
I too am in a Classic Rock band and having been in it since 2003 I have gone from note for note renditions of songs to adding fills of my own that work for the chords to out right changing a bass line completely (sorry sometimes what worked in the studio is too damn boring to play on stage) So I change it up some nights when I feel like it I will play it note for note. Great example Honky Tonk by the Stones Bill doesn't come in till the chorus and drops out during the verse.
Might be a dump question ,But I to have ask. do you guys rehearse together? or do you get the email on Tuesday night from the BL saying learn these songs and will see you on sat night. Their are (2) reason I ask is (1) if you rehearse together you can work out the songs and there is nothing coming from left field ,unless one of the guys gets a little too lose. But that never happens. Lol.The second reason is I find myself sometimes over playing when I'm learning a new song especially if its super boring to play.
I remember coming off the stage of my first show and one of the guys in the audience said... "Hey that was good, but a little too notey ya know? Like you ever seen the movie Amadeus? Yea kinda like that"
I don't think I'll ever get a comment better than that.
I don't think I'll ever get a comment better than that.
I played it right one time my guitar player insisted and since he did I sat with my back to the band bass on a stand and waited the part came up I picked up the bass and played it then drop out and went on with my conversation. Yup played the entire song sitting without looking at the band once ha ha ha. I got up after the song and the guitarist was laughing his a$$ off and he said God Slinger sometimes you are such an a$$
1) No we don't really rehearse as we are all spread out and dont have any space. We all have been playing a while and typically we discuss what new material to learn, show up and play it. This is not ideal but we stick with simpler tunes and it works out most of the time.
in a cover band honor the tune. When doing Who, Yes, Rush etc tunes you can get quite busy without messing them up, but not so with VH, AC/DC etc tunes.
You can serve the song AND be creative... being a world-class player fits somewhere in there equation.
Exactly.
I get compliments about how tasteful my playing is. That brilliant bass run might only work if it's only played once during the song, but can sound plain silly if repeated throughout the song.
Maturity helps us to refine these everyday ideas and play them at perfect moments (and not just blurt it out frequently). While playing I think 'smooth like silk' and my bass lines/ expression follows.
Tension/release, restraint/going for it, control/enthusiasm, simplicity/soloing, grooving/syncopating, backline/leading, etc. It's about seamlessly moving from one to the other (or doing both together if possible).
I went through this, though it wasnt because people were complaining, it was more of a thing I noticed on my own. And, when I was younger I was only in originals bands so it didnt matter much. I have calmed down a bit now that Im in cover bands, but there are times I embellish. for me it depends on the song, if Im playing something with a trademark bass line, i usually stick to it. Ive noticed comments usually come from know-it-alls that couldnt bare any scrutiny on THEIR playing.
EVERYTHING is context. Tell Rocco Prestia that he plays too many notes, or Flea, or Chris Squire. Difference is that those guys are playing the perfect stuff for their music, which is why they can be so busy and sell triple platinum albums and fill stadiums. You can just as easily play to FEW notes. Context is king. If I am playing "Thrill Is Gone" I am probably going to play the recorded bass part note for note and add in a little thing here and there during the guitar solo to keep. But if I am playing "My Generation" then it is my JOB to solo and do something kick-ass on the bass. Your soundcloud stuff to me shows that you have good instincts. Trust em and fit the situation. And who cares what a few old cranks in the audience think? Seriously, I can't imagine seeing a band, and then walking up to the bass player and telling him he is too busy. That is dickwad behavior to me, like the jerks who heckle comedians or are rude to their waiters. I want to hear THEIR playing before I let it influence my choices.
Sometimes the pro will not comment as it will not do any good and the offender will call the pro an idiot. Ever watch the movie Cars? Yeah, it happens in real life too. Other times someone will comment to see how the player takes it. When I was a contractor I'd talk to players I felt might have potential to get a feel on whether they can be worked with.
and then some times the armchair experts have to show their superiority in front of their friends and "peers".
How are you taking it?
and then some times the armchair experts have to show their superiority in front of their friends and "peers".
How are you taking it?
This is how it comes across to me in most occasions, as some kind of ego thing. When I watch a band, even if the bass player or guitar player or keys guy sucks, I NEVER walk up during a set break and tell them that. It will just make them mad, won't help them play better, and will just ruin their night. It is their fellow band member's job to criticize their playing, not mine. If you can't find anything nice to say....
- Jul 3, 2007
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- Author of "Soul Fingers." I'm the Duck Dunn expert.
Are you asking how can I survive without swinging? To be honest, in jazz, swinging is that pinnacle of groove, where you're in the zone, where everything just seems to feel right. Usually, it's when you look over at your drummer and the two of you are exchanging smiles while the soloist just seems to float right over our groove.
But, in other genres, their groove is their own "swing." Now, in swinging jazz, that groove is a walking line. But I also was brought up at about the same time to play salsa, and we used the phrase "swinging" when something felt really good there. Doesn't really need to be swing for it to swing, dig?
Good question. If you start playing way too many different notes like that, you would absolutely stop swinging. I feel there needs to be some occasional triplet establishment in the walking line, but it's kind of like making a gumbo. A pinch of salt here, a bit of pepper there. Sometimes, I would add too many triplets in a row, and the groove suffers. But once I start digging in and walking those quarter notes again, everything smooths out, and it feels better. Get too busy, and do something like turn that beat around, and you're toast after the gig.
I believe that a jazz musician has the potential to be proficient in any genre, provided he doesn't let his "artistry" that says jazz is "the best" get in the way. Lots of your busy players are either jazz based guys or try to sound like Vic. The sad thing is, they have the chops to learn how to groove in other genres, but they usually think they're "improving" the genre by showing other audiences what the bass can do. It's like if Anthony Daniels started to try to take the lead as C-3PO and tell the rest of the group what to do. The audience and the players would both be flabbergasted.
A guy I work for replaced another bass player with me, mainly because they went to play at a certain classic rock musician's gig (names withheld because that guy may be on this board, I don't know). This old celebrity and his sound guy approached the bandleader and asked what the deal is with his bass player. He just wouldn't stop playing the whole sound check, and played as fast and as many notes as possible, and his own check had nothing to do with what he was going to play that night. His busy playing tripped up the players, and this old rocker, who's friends with the bandleader, told him that bassist isn't the right fit.
How are you taking it?[/QUOTE]
. After hearing this, I reflected a bit and realized yes I may be going a bit "off the rails" at times and am now looking to improve. There has been a lot of useful advice here, most of which I have said to others in the past myself. As I said in a previous post, I started playing again about 18 months ago after several years of inactivity and I've been stretching and pushing to regain lost abilities. I believe this is the true source, without being to conscious of it, I'm using the gigs to push a bit and try new things. Now that its come to the surface, I can be more aware of my tendency to do this and improve. I don't think one can improve at anything unless they are honest with themselves, open to their own shortcomings than close the loop to improve.
I have nearly zero ego, am fully open to constructive and helpful criticism, which is why I posted this in the first place knowing the risk troll and flamer posts
. After hearing this, I reflected a bit and realized yes I may be going a bit "off the rails" at times and am now looking to improve. There has been a lot of useful advice here, most of which I have said to others in the past myself. As I said in a previous post, I started playing again about 18 months ago after several years of inactivity and I've been stretching and pushing to regain lost abilities. I believe this is the true source, without being to conscious of it, I'm using the gigs to push a bit and try new things. Now that its come to the surface, I can be more aware of my tendency to do this and improve. I don't think one can improve at anything unless they are honest with themselves, open to their own shortcomings than close the loop to improve.
Doner Designs
Steve Doner
- Jun 2, 2012
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- Doner Designs is an alias for Steve Doner
I like posts like this because I'm not capable of playing fast - combination of starting late in life and trouble with my hands from too much typing.
Sometimes I rationalize my GAS by thinking that my whole notes will sound better if the tone is perfect.
Sometimes I rationalize my GAS by thinking that my whole notes will sound better if the tone is perfect.
I must take issue with Mr. Armstrong. Jazz is easy to explain.
Jazz is what you get when you throw a Blues quartet down a flight of stairs.
Jazz is what you get when you throw a Blues quartet down a flight of stairs.
I started playing again about 18 months ago after several years of inactivity and I've been stretching and pushing to regain lost abilities. I believe this is the true source, without being to conscious of it, I'm using the gigs to push a bit and try new things. Now that its come to the surface, I can be more aware of my tendency to do this and improve. I don't think one can improve at anything unless they are honest with themselves, open to their own shortcomings than close the loop to improve.[/QUOTE]
Well said. I too am back into playing after about two years off. I find that I have matured quite a bit in those two years. When I play a cover tune, I try to play the bassline that made that song a platinum hit. This takes a lot of discipline when the song is really simple, like "Free Falling" When I play an original with my current band then I have the freedom to write a part that works and since our group is a power trio active bass playing is called for. Since we record all of our originals I can hear it objectively and can sometimes on the spot realize I am overplaying or playing a part that doesn't fit and do a better take. Recording really is the best feedback. But I occasionally get hired for session work and I have left some sessions with regrets for playing too simple because I was intimidated by the setting to really stretch out. I think people would be surprised how much great bass playing is happening even in modern Bro country. It ain't just roots and fifths, they want you to double guitar licks, add fills, or even play above the 12th fret sometimes. It takes a special player to be busy and still groove. Listen to bands trying to cover What's Going On and I'll bet you half those bass players can't play Jamerson's part without dropping the groove. Then listen to Abe Laboriel. He could play straight 32nd notes and it would be fat and tight and makes the girls dance.
Thanks for your response.
I've asked a question for the following reason.
I don't want ANYBODY to misunderstand that Swing Jazz does not have GROOVE, at least that's what I got from your comment.
Now, about that SALSA.
Salsa without GROOVE (as pulsation) CANNOT be true Salsa.
Many years ago, we were playing some fast Latin Music and I "allowed" myself some "luxury" of adding a few more or less intricate bass fills that were INTERRUPTING the bass foundation/groove It sounded good to me but a knowledgeable PRO bass player told me, "Don't loose that bass line's rhythmic pattern."
I would say, it's more about being KNOWLEDGEABLE about ANY GENRE.
You can be the SMARTEST NASA SCIENTIST, but when it's time to change a flat tire somewhere on the road, you don't try to applied your "string theory" knowledge.
- Jul 3, 2007
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- Disclosures
- Author of "Soul Fingers." I'm the Duck Dunn expert.
This is the excuse people give when they're told they're too busy. "Vic plays more notes than this," or, "have you ever heard Larry Graham? That's what he would do!" It's actually an immature reaction. If you play what you want to play, you do what the guys you mentioned did: you either create your own project band or you find a bandleader that's looking for that. If you're being hired to "play bass," and the bandleader doesn't like the busy playing, that's his decision.
Victor Wooten has touched on this subject numerous times (and the next time I find a video of him saying this, I'm going to save it). He will say he goes out and hears bass players play WAY too busy all the time, and when he talks to them about it, they usually use him as an example to play busy. He then says, "look, what I do is what I'm hired to do. The paycheck isn't going to a 'bass player,' it's going to Victor Wooten. They also hire me because of my ability to groove. Those other notes? The icing on the cake. Make sure you've made the cake before you throw the icing on it.
Reminds me about what Cab Calloway said once: "if you got good musicians, you don't have to say anything. And if you don't got good musicians, there's nothing you can say."
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