Too Many Notes?

[bassmangotdbluz]

In my youth I was accused this time and time again. A really talented guitarist friend once said I was "too free form to be a bass player" and should play guitar. Within a few years of learning to play I was able run bass lines on Rotosound Swing Bass 66 Medium Gauge Strings (that's .105" on the E) with Van Halen-like speed until after losing several jobs I realized I was like a pair of Jordache '70's Designer Disco Jeans ... NO POCKET. I now sometimes get complaints from hardline Country Players where simplicity is a must but I'm generally well accepted. REMEMBER, LESS IS MORE when it comes to laying down a solid foundational Bassline. Save all your Ego-Fueled Pud-Wanking for solos. Oh, and BTW; What are the three most unnecessary things on Planet Earth? The Pope's Nuts and a Bass Solo.

 

[engedi1]

Victor Wooten has touched on this subject numerous times (and the next time I find a video of him saying this, I'm going to save it). He will say he goes out and hears bass players play WAY too busy all the time, and when he talks to them about it, they usually use him as an example to play busy. He then says, "look, what I do is what I'm hired to do. The paycheck isn't going to a 'bass player,' it's going to Victor Wooten. They also hire me because of my ability to groove. Those other notes? The icing on the cake. Make sure you've made the cake before you throw the icing on it.



Reminds me about what Cab Calloway said once: "if you got good musicians, you don't have to say anything. And if you don't got good musicians, there's nothing you can say.

People seem to forget how hard Victor Wooten grooves and swings. He is always in the pocket, and lay down nasty funk with the best, or swing a walking bebop line. Some of his favorite playing of mine is his groovier stuff with the Flecktones. I am not into his solo stuff.

 

[bopeuph]

I don't want ANYBODY to misunderstand that Swing Jazz does not have GROOVE, at least that's what I got from your comment.

Groove in this context actually started with jazz. So anyone who says jazz doesn't groove either doesn't understand the history of jazz or groove, or is ignorant of it.

Now, about that SALSA.
Salsa without GROOVE (as pulsation) CANNOT be true Salsa.
Many years ago, we were playing some fast Latin Music and I "allowed" myself some "luxury" of adding a few more or less intricate bass fills that were INTERRUPTING the bass foundation/groove It sounded good to me but a knowledgeable PRO bass player told me, "Don't loose that bass line's rhythmic pattern."

Yep. It's always best to go and check out the salsa cats in the 70s, like Willie Colon, Gilberto Santa Rosa, Ray Barretto, ect. That seems to be the height of salsa.

I would say, it's more about being KNOWLEDGEABLE about ANY GENRE.
You can be the SMARTEST NASA SCIENTIST, but when it's time to change a flat tire somewhere on the road, you don't try to applied your "string theory" knowledge.

I'd probably more liken it to a commercial airliner mechanic working on a car engine. You have the basic knowledge to do the job, but you should probably study car engines a bit more before you decide to get ASE certified.

Edit: better analogy.

 

[Rocktometrist]

Good question. If you start playing way too many different notes like that, you would absolutely stop swinging. I feel there needs to be some occasional triplet establishment in the walking line, but it's kind of like making a gumbo. A pinch of salt here, a bit of pepper there. Sometimes, I would add too many triplets in a row, and the groove suffers. But once I start digging in and walking those quarter notes again, everything smooths out, and it feels better. Get too busy, and do something like turn that beat around, and you're toast after the gig.

In my book, establishing that swinging triplet feel in a walking line is crucial. That almost never means playing a full triplet--usually it's ghost or "pickup" notes incorporated into a walking line to give it some swing.

Straight quarter note walking lines can be kind of boring--even if the harmonic choices are interesting. I mean, jazz has been with us for about a century now--how many times can we listen to a bass line going boom boom boom boom boom boom with no variation before it gets old? Obviously there is a fine line between interesting and inappropriate, but I'm honestly way more entertained by musicians who flirt with that line than those who rehash the same thing we've been hearing for 100 years.

For me, that attraction to adventurous playing translates to classic rock covers as well--but I fully realize that I'm in the minority on that, and cover band audiences almost universally want to hear a faithful note-for-note cover. That kind of rote playing doesn't hold my attention as a musician or a listener (which is why I don't play in a cover band, and also why conservative trad jazz players are about as interesting as hearing paint dry!)

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I'm honestly way more entertained by musicians who flirt with that line than those who rehash the same thing we've been hearing for 100 years.

 

[Hoss Groovealot]

I get accused of it often. Sometimes I do overplay, but many times it is because some people can't always hear the basseline on their old recordings or don't venture out beyond a specific genre. If they did, they may realize, I am actually playing quite a simple basseline. Just because I am not thumping one note and I am moving around the fretboard doesn't mean I am overplaying.
I always think of how funny Billy Sheehan is when he hypes on playing in the pocket and what the song needs, but then proceeds to play a solo from start to finish of the song.

Addicted to That Rush cracks me up.

 

[lowerclef]

In my experience doing classic rock cover work, you simply cannot go wrong staying true to the original line, whether simple or busy. People (band and audience) tend to want to hear familiarity in those settings, and I find if you give it to them, they will love you for it every time.

 

[okcrum]

"Never practice on the gig." - Nick Brignola

 

[Rocktometrist]

 

[FirewalZ]

OK, this post has officially "gone off the rails"

 

[electracoyote]

I don't think the age bias has much to do with it.

In any cover band, there is a spectrum of beliefs and standards as to how close to the most-popular recorded version you should be.

There is no "right" or "wrong," but rather what's "right" or "wrong" for your particular project.

On one end of the spectrum, some cover bands have a standard of very strictly adhering to ultra-faithful reproduction of the most-popular recorded version. On the other end is an almost "anything goes" standard (within reason). And in between is a sliding tolerance scale for embellishment and re-writing of parts.

What OP is experiencing is a little push back to what his band mates perceive as too much creative license. They hear him doing things they didn't hear on the version of the song they want to reproduce.

Again, age has nothing to do with it, and there is no universal "right or wrong." It's a band standard that either develops naturally and collectively or by the direction of a designated Music Director.

 

[LurkingDrue]

This past summer, I saw a group of 4 at a company function. The bass player was a coworker that I had no idea played. He said his usual gig is on an upright in more jazzy settings. I got to tell you, once they started playing, it was obvious he didn't usually play rock covers.

There wasn't really anything technically wrong with the notes or rhythms he was playing. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's can run rings around me in musical knowledge. It just wasn't what that particular group or those particular songs needed. I felt he could have done a lot more by doing a lot less to have the group as a whole sound much better. Worst offence had to be Tom Petty's Runnin' Down A Dream. Can you imagine that song without the 8th note root pedal? Yeah, it was like that...

One of my rules (besides playing what the song asks for) is to never play more than half a step above the skill level of the other musicians and then only for a few beats at a time. Another being never ever break groove except when it is %200 clear someone else has it for that time.

I love threads like these because they give me a stick to the side of the head to reexamine my own playing and where it would serve me to tighten up.

 

[FirewalZ]

I don't think the age bias has much to do with it.

In a cover band, there is a spectrum of beliefs and standards as to how close to the most-popular recorded version you should be.

There is no "right" or "wrong," but rather what's "right" or "wrong" for your particular project.

On one end of the spectrum, some cover bands have a standard of very strictly adhering to ultra-faithful reproduction of the most-popular recorded version. On the other end is an almost "anything goes" standard (within reason). And in between is a sliding tolerance scale for embellishment and re-writing of parts.

What OP is experiencing is a little push back to what his band mates perceive as too much creative license. They hear him doing things they didn't hear on the version of the song they want to reproduce.

Again, age has nothing to do with it, and there is no universal "right or wrong." It's a band standard that either develops naturally and collectively or by the direction of a designated Music Director.

A little more context...the band has zero issues and likes the way i play....it was just a few "old cats" from the audience.

 

[electracoyote]

A little more context...the band has zero issues and likes the way i play....it was just a few "old cats" from the audience.

In that case, it's up to you and your band as to whether audience/client opinion matters. Some bands couldn't care less. Some bands have a target client and audience and take their standards and needs into consideration. It's your call.

 

[FirewalZ]

I love threads like these because they give me a stick to the side of the head to reexamine my own playing and where it would serve me to tighten up.

Yep, this is why I posted it....I realized I had "drifted" a bit and now as you say need to tighten up a bit.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Record yourself playing then critique it. Many bass instructors advocate the approach of "provide only what the song needs, nothing more, nothing less." You specifically note chord tones and counter melody, which on bass are easy places to do too much, so that could be part of it. For classic rock, these are not the most common approaches, and often for good reason. They are more common in jazz and walking bass, so perhaps you are doing some style mashup that detracts from the song melody. There is also a difference between an active bass line and a busy one. Active "can" be good; busy is never good.

Listen to Sklar's bass playing. I was watching him on the John Lennon 75-year Birthday program the other day and his bass-playing is just masterful. Never, ever loses the groove, never steals the focus from a drum or keyboard solo that is supposed to have the focus, yet able to just GO in the right places at the right time. Fills when he needs to fill, remains solid when he doesn't while still putting in slight variations from time to time to keep it interesting. He plays active bass lines without turning them into "busy" bass lines.

Back in the mid-80's, I saw Clapton in concert and he had this hotshot kid playing a lot of the leads. The kid was really good, but he was all show. He was determined to prove to everybody how fast he was. It came across as "see, I can play faster than Clapton". He had a lead on this one song and totally got lost. He was playing the wrong runs against the wrong chords and more importantly had lost the beat of the song and couldn't seem to find the downbeat to get back on track. Clapton started playing some slower background riffs and gradually came up to take over the lead. It was a perfect example of "look what I can do" as opposed to "what the song needs". There's a time and place for fast and busy, but remember you are holding down the groove and if you lose the beat, everybody loses the beat.

 

[Ewo]

Haven't read all the posts, so maybe somebody already commented along this line...

When I was young I tended to play a lot of fills or sub hook kinds of things. As I got older and more experienced, I learned to concentrate on grooving with the drummer most of the time (IOW, be concerned with rhythm more than notes), and pick a few spots here and there for a fill which 1) stayed out of the way of the vocal line and other instruments, and 2) clearly added something to the tune.

So what I aim for now is a much clearer distinction between when I'm laying back in the pocket and maintaining the groove, and when I'm busting a move. Coming out of the R & B tradition (I'm an old cat, and that stuff on AM radio was what got me turned on to the bass), I find that approach personally satisfying, and also pleasing to bandmates as long as they're not trying to fill up every hole themselves.

 

[Ron Ciaburri]

I used to, until I realized the music was more important than my 'self expression'. Spend some time reading some Zen literature if you'd like. Find joy in making other people strong. Learn what makes the ensemble sound best. There is peace in supporting.

That's great advice!!

 

[sharkbait130]

Hmmm , five pages. I guess I'm coming in a little late in the game here , but here goes anyway. I've been playing in classic rock and southern rock bands for about 50 years now. The music is more important than your ego or mine. You are there to supply a solid bottom end , not to show off your bass playing skills. Took me a while to learn that one myself. If you want to show off that kind of stuff , you should have been a lead guitar player and even then , most of them annoyingly overplay. I played lead in a few bands over the years and I'm sure I made a nuisance out of myself from time to time. Been playing nothing but bass for the last 14 years. I find these days that sometimes I even back off of what is being played on the originals. Keeps some songs much more solid in a live situation. Heck if I get one short solo per show these days , I'm more than happy.
Be the rock at the bottom end , that's what you are there for. Something to keep in mind. The fewer notes you play , the more you get paid for each one of them.

 

[carl h.]

Reminds me about what Cab Calloway said once: "if you got good musicians, you don't have to say anything. And if you don't got good musicians, there's nothing you can say.

this

One of my rules (besides playing what the song asks for) is to never play more than half a step above the skill level of the other musicians and then only for a few beats at a time.

There is a similar philosophy used in the theater called GEFTS - good enough for this show. If you play beyond whatever anyone else is doing you detract from the enjoyment of the whole. I'd rather have people leave saying the band sounded good rather than "what an awesome bassist, too bad he doesn't have a better band." Be a contributor, not the whole damn show.