I saw 3 nights of Widespread Panic in Austin last month at The Moody Theater. The sound was absolutely spectacular. I think it really depends on the quality of the room, the gear and the experience of the sound guys.
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Too much bass
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A good sound guy can make a marginal system sound good - a bad sound guy can make a great system sound bad...
I remember looking very much forward to hearing, for the first time, Rocco Prestia with Tower of Power at a 3000 seat NY venue around 2005... Mud, nothing but mud... So disappointed!
And the sound guys looked at you, giggled, and made snide remarks about the guy who knows nothing.
That's what they do. I think sound guys in general, and aside from the aforementioned exceptions are some of the most uptight a------s in music. Probably because they are failed as talent themselves. A sound guy can make or break a performance, a good one will let the performer shine through, and be happy that he can do that for you. Bad ones don't know how bad they are and don't care about the performance.
It's time to take a stand. When the sound sucks, tell the venue manager, and tell him or her that you're not returning until it is fixed. Let's get all those bad sound guys new jobs. "Would you like fries with that?"
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Fortunately, or not, most people don't know good from bad. Thus poor sound mixers, (I hesitate to classify them in the same group as sound engineers) get away with it.
A few years ago I was playing a local venue and the soundman both had it so loud that it kept patrons away and had the subs cranked so much we felt like we were stuck in a permanent earthquake. Finally we had to stop playing and demand that he turn them either waaaay down or off. Was still loud AF though.
We saw Joe Satriani last year and while the bass was fine, we could hardly hear Joe's guitar playing. I've been to many concerts at this same venue so I know the acoustics there are just fine. A lack of clear sound from the bass is one thing but almost no sound from the big man himself? What gives?
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I couldn't agree more with you. My wife drags me to a lot of shows and it's always hit or miss. Most of the misses comes from way too much volume and a total lack of clarity. But I've heard shows that were really loud and clear and didn't hurt one bit. One band I've never heard sound bad live has been The Doobie Bros. They open for a lot of acts and you can see the headliner's engineer with his Mackie set up, but their guy always has a big old analog board. Not sure if it has to do with the equipment or the fact that one guy used his ears and the other mixes off of meters and spectrum analyzers (I'm just making feces up now). My favorite band is Rush and I haven't heard a good mix out of them since Roll The Bones in '91. Well, R30 was pretty good but that was in Radio City and I don't think anyone could sound bad in that room. It all comes down to the engineer and a lot of them should be ashamed of how they mix.
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A drummer friend plays in a band that I won't go see anymore because of this. It's really sad to see bands and their followers think music is supposed to be a big wall of mud.
The obnoxious mix syndrome has pretty much discouraged me from live shows. What i find perplexing is that a how little influence that some really prominent acts have on their sound. Either that or how little they care.
I saw them in Detroit, and, yes, I felt like I could hear enough to recognize the songs, but not a lot more than that. No hope for hearing the basslines. Admittedly I was in the very back row, so maybe I should have sprung for closer seats.
We also stopped by an outdoor festival in downtown Ann Arbor recently. I forget the band, but it seemed more on the folk-y end of the spectrum. We were there when the double-bass player was doing a sound check. I could see his hand moving up and down the neck, but the only sound coming out was "wooomp woo-woomp woomp". Weird. Was there something about the spot or the equipment that just made it impossible, or was that actually what the sound guy wanted? I don't know.
I don't necessarily have anything against the occasional earthshaking whoomp, I understand why it can be exciting. I really like being able to hear actual notes, though. Do the two have to be incompatible?
I've seen Rush on every tour since Permanent Waves and I've heard them with near headphone quality mixes to pure garbage. I prefer my seats a bit further back with an unobstructed view but my wife talked me into getting "VIP" seats for Clockwork Angels in Saratoga Springs, NY. The seats were 8th row and a little off to the right but the sound was absolutely horrendous. I know the songs intimately and I could see Geddy's hands flying around but there was nothing but a wall of distorted mud. I was looking around at all the people and was wondering what it must sound like to someone who wasn't familiar with the music. I talked to my wife who agreed to walk the venue and see if someone in the upper levels would like to trade seats. We walked the entire place and didn't find a spot where the sound was any better. So, we just went back to our seats and enjoyed what we could. One of the top 3 mixes I've heard was on the Roll The Bones tour and our backs were to the wall in the upper level of Madison Square Garden and the sound was, as I said, headphone quality. Seat position shouldn't be all that critical to decent sound unless you're right on the side of the stage or behind it. As for upright basses, I've never heard one that didn't sound like "wooomp woo-woomp woomp".
- Oct 18, 2012
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The cause of this is that almost every sound engineer at a live venue is mixing while listening through headphones. In doing so, they cannot hear the acoustic qualities of the room. I first noticed this about 15 years ago at TD Garden in Boston during a KISS concert. Things haven't gotten any better.
I always tell my buddies this & they say they love the nauseating amount of air being being pushed around by those subs. I saw My Morning Jacket, WITH earplugs, & it was difficult to decipher bass from synths. Forget about even comparing bass tone.
I find that even home/car stereos are tuned to have so much bass that it's stupid. I just bought a 2013 Mazda2 & the EQ is set to -6.
I think it really says a lot about the music when countless thousands of hours are spent mixing albums just to have it butchered by stereo manufacturers.
I find that even home/car stereos are tuned to have so much bass that it's stupid. I just bought a 2013 Mazda2 & the EQ is set to -6.
I think it really says a lot about the music when countless thousands of hours are spent mixing albums just to have it butchered by stereo manufacturers.
As someone who mostly listens to Metal, it's difficult for me to imagine bass being too loud. I guess it's different live. I've only been to two concerts in the past 16 years.
This, and the OP, are worrisome. I'm taking my wife to see both Tedeschi Trucks and Duran Duran this summer. I'd hate to be looking forward to them so much and have it wrecked by a bad mix. Fingers crossed...
Seeing different bands over the last few years, I've had mixed experiences. Most have been great, or at least not so bad as for me to notice the mix being a problem. The absolute worst was Kasabian at the Boston House of Blues (and I've definitely heard some good mixes in there). It was like every instrument (two guitars, bass, and keys) were all running fuzz on full - just one giant mass of mud, couldn't make out a note in the whole thing from anybody.
One interesting comparison was also in Boston, at the Bank of America Pavilion. We saw the "Tour de Compadres" with Needtobreathe, Switchfoot, and two different opening bands. The muddy thuddy bass with the opening bands was awful. Then the headliners played and it was perfect, rich and punchy and crystal clear. Same venue, same PA, I assume the same sound guy. The only explanation I could think was that the opening act didn't get a proper soundcheck so they just used the settings from the headliner, and I guess with the opener's gear those settings weren't suited to decent tone.
I had another experience in local clubs, where I went to two of the busiest joints in town to see different bands the same night. Both experienced popular cover bands that gig a lot. In the first one - massive muddy blob. Couldn't make out a single note the bassist was playing. At the other - perfect, punchy, crystal clear. I'm not sure how much was the bassist himself, how much was the acoustics of the room, and how much was a bass-crazy sound guy, but the difference was night and day.
With my own tone, I get a lot of people saying they want more BASS in the bass. I generally resist it. I've told the story before about a guitarist wanting to set my EQ, and putting a huge mid-scoop in it. Next gig he's shouting at me to turn down, the bass is too loud. Instead of turning down, I put the EQ back where it was - slight bump to lows and mids, slight cut to highs - and he thought that was great.
IMHO, the problem is not in the abilities of sound men or the capabilities of the technology they use, it is what they themselves are hearing in their heads and think the audience wants to hear.
