Too much bass

[Xajuran]

IMHO, the problem is not in the abilities of sound men or the capabilities of the technology they use, it is what they themselves are hearing in their heads and think the audience wants to hear.

It's very much about the technicians doing the mixing. I've had an experience recently to "enjoy" a hard rock concert at a mid sized venue here in Nashville. The opener was a local group with perfect sound. The second act was a charting metal group and the sound was so poorly mixed that you couldn't hear anything for the giant screaming wall of noise. It was horrible. The main gig (Seether) was mixed perfectly again, with every note and every word clear and the volume loud but nothing stupid.

It was very obvious that it was about the sound team's inexperience and makes me reconsider returning to the venue at all.

 

[Aloe]

Everyone needs a good sound engineer. As well as video operator. Both ruined my latest gig two weeks ago BTW. And I was not aware of the problems until I saw that on video.

Even if you don't use a mixer console and just drive your own combo – you need someone to go down the stage and listen to the sound. We were playing as a two-piece band without a sound engineer, so we relied on public. We asked: "everything's ok with sound?" after the soundcheck and were answered like "yeah, great". But when we listened to the record – it was not balanced, very quiet bass (vocals overwhelmed it totally) and unbalanced percussion (very quiet shaker and very loud bells).

I would like to think that eventually the sound and video guy should be the part of the band, but have not yet met a person who was willing to do this and whose vision I liked after a gig or two.

Personally I think, the problem is: nowadays noone really wants to be a sound engineer. We have a lot of DJs and guys that make sampled music on their computer nowadays, but you may have a hard time finding a good sound guy for the live shows.

 

[delta7fred]

Everyone needs a good sound engineer. As well as video operator. Both ruined my latest gig two weeks ago BTW. And I was not aware of the problems until I saw that on video.

Even if you don't use a mixer console and just drive your own combo – you need someone to go down the stage and listen to the sound. We were playing as a two-piece band without a sound engineer, so we relied on public. We asked: "everything's ok with sound?" after the soundcheck and were answered like "yeah, great". But when we listened to the record – it was not balanced, very quiet bass (vocals overwhelmed it totally) and unbalanced percussion (very quiet shaker and very loud bells).

I would like to think that eventually the sound and video guy should be the part of the band, but have not yet met a person who was willing to do this and whose vision I liked after a gig or two.

Personally I think, the problem is: nowadays noone really wants to be a sound engineer. We have a lot of DJs and guys that make sampled music on their computer nowadays, but you may have a hard time finding a good sound guy for the live shows.

We mix from the stage, I walk the room at sound check and signal back to the guitarist any changes that are required.

We always use the same channels on the mixer so the controls remain set from the last gig. Most of the changes are to compensate for the room acoustics.

Except for when the drummer decides to swap his vocal mic. He has 3 'identical' mics, identical in appearance but vastly different in output level and quality and last night he decided to use one that has been dropped once too often. It had no bottom end and the output was way down on the gig last week and no amount of EQ and level adjustment would correct this, then we asked him if it was the same mic 'They're all the same' was his response (but I still marked it with a red tape so we can see if he pulls that stunt again). Drummers well some of them.

 

[Aloe]

We mix from the stage, I walk the room at sound check and signal back to the guitarist any changes that are required.

I'm happy that you have this option, we also do this when we can. But in a 2pc band if I drop my bass guitar and walk down, I'm not able to hear my bass. If the singer drops her mic and goes down, she's not able to hear herself. I think, you understand, why. So essentially we need the third person to hear from distance how do we both sound.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

I couldn't agree more with you. My wife drags me to a lot of shows and it's always hit or miss. Most of the misses comes from way too much volume and a total lack of clarity. But I've heard shows that were really loud and clear and didn't hurt one bit. One band I've never heard sound bad live has been The Doobie Bros. They open for a lot of acts and you can see the headliner's engineer with his Mackie set up, but their guy always has a big old analog board. Not sure if it has to do with the equipment or the fact that one guy used his ears and the other mixes off of meters and spectrum analyzers (I'm just making feces up now). My favorite band is Rush and I haven't heard a good mix out of them since Roll The Bones in '91. Well, R30 was pretty good but that was in Radio City and I don't think anyone could sound bad in that room. It all comes down to the engineer and a lot of them should be ashamed of how they mix.

One of the most difficult things I deal with at work is trying to get people to understand what meters can and can't do. We are not after archival recordings here, just something for on the air, or the next newscast.

In addition to meters, they must listen carefully to what is being recorded. Most of them just set the level fader to "the mark" on the console. They have no regard for the live source they are recording.

With meters, especially analog VU meters, they are so afraid of the needle ever touching the red, that the overall level comes out too low. And that is one channel. Heaven forbid they have to mix two.

I've also seen people ride the level so much that they attempt to keep the needle right at the red line regardless of the nature of the incoming audio. Most folks have no concept of dynamic range.

Granted, most instances do not require the services of a professional, sound engineer. But I also see the "certified" professional sound guy do the same stuff.

 

[delta7fred]

I'm happy that you have this option, we also do this when we can. But in a 2pc band if I drop my bass guitar and walk down, I'm not able to hear my bass. If the singer drops her mic and goes down, she's not able to hear herself. I think, you understand, why. So essentially we need the third person to hear from distance how do we both sound.

I have 2 x 20 foot chords and a joiner so can play my bass and listen. (Wireless would be good but I am not shelling out that much cash for a once a night use and don't need one on stage as I sing on almost every song so am rooted behind a mic stand.)

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Like most of us I've attended lots of live shows. But my god these sound engineers need to ease up on those subs. Within the last few weeks I've seen Duran Duran and Hall and Oates and the bass has no definition. Just one big low freq that rattles everything in site. Why? Why must this be. HPF's for everyone!

Back when I was younger I do not remember it being like this.

It's a large part of why I don't go to see big name bands any more. Why pay £50 for a disappointing experience?

 

[obimark]

I played this small club that installed a sub underneath the stage- and of course the sound guy only ran kick drum through it.

I told the sound-douche- "I can't hear a damn thing I am playing and the stage is shaking so hard I can't even get my timing right. Turn it down, or I will turn my amp off, and just mime playing this whole show."

 

[obimark]

It's a large part of why I don't go to see big name bands any more. Why pay £50 for a disappointing experience?

Also not to mention that they typically play "Chastain" here- which is short-hand for yuppy women, talking through the whole show, while they drink their wine with their girlfriends and drag in more food than you've seen in a year.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I saw Satriani last year. The bass was an absolute muddy mess. Ruined the entire show.

The thing is, these people are professionals, and they can't get it right? I've heard unknown bands in clubs that sound great. It's not impossible.

Edit: Btw, this was a small venue, with about 1000 people.

I've seen known bands in clubs sound great (e.g. Heaven 17... Perfect mix) and terrible (Martha and the Vandellas... Drum and bass mix). Same club too. In some ways relatively cheap subs seem to have maybe been detriment, especially given location dependent combing effects of dual subs.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

The only time I can handle it is when I've seen family man over the years. It's a must I think in reggae.

Listen to those old reggae recordings, though... Plenty of low MIDs, but not much really low stuff, more of a treble cut

 

[Aloe]

I have 2 x 20 foot chords and a joiner so can play my bass and listen.

Well, I don't like bringing too much cords, but if the question is: should I bring them all or we'd have bad sound – I'd better get a joiner. Thanks.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

The technology has become light years more advanced - but the sound techs have forgotten (assuming they ever knew) how to mix live sound. Everybody these days seems to think they're mixing for studio. Possibly because (or so I've been told) everything at most shows gets recorded in case it can be used for a 'live' album some day?

I've been to one big concert (Tull) in the last ten years where, although it was loud, you could still hear everything clearly - and the bass didn't sound like sludge. Everything else I've been to has been pretty bad. So much so that I've given up on live concerts. If I can't catch the band in a small theater type setting I just don't go anymore.

Actually 'thick as a brick 2' was another example of a good mix. Throwing Muses also a little while back. Both theatre sized but not huge venues. I saw Tull in the NEC (barn) and it was fine too, but that was in the 80s

 

[delta7fred]

It's a large part of why I don't go to see big name bands any more. Why pay £50 for a disappointing experience?

I don't go to see many now, I used to but am getting too old, but did go to see ACDC at Wembley on their Black Ice tour and their sound was pretty much perfect (more than can be said for the support acts but they probably didn't have access to the whole sound system).

I also saw a 3 headliner bill of The Groundhogs, Focus, and one of the iterations of Wishbone Ash (the one with the original bassplayer/singer). The Groundhogs sound was abysmal, Focus sound was good, and Wishbone Ash had near CD quality sound. They each used their own sound guy so I guess that was the reason.

 

[delta7fred]

Actually 'thick as a brick 2' was another example of a good mix. Throwing Muses also a little while back. Both theatre sized but not huge venues. I saw Tull in the NEC (barn) and it was fine too, but that was in the 80s

I did hear that Ian Anderson is very particular when it comes to sound, sound checks can be long and rather painful if you are in the 'near enough' camp.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

BIG +1.....

For the past couple of years the new country band I work with does a spring, summer, fall, 5-6 state tour thing where we do fairs, festivals, stage shows, ect. where the FOH and sound crew is always furnished.

With a very few exceptions, I'd call our out front low end as "mud" no matter who the sound company is and what type of equipment is in use.
A front mix where the bass drum is so dominant it's washing out things on stage.

We've tried befriending the sound crews.....we've tried threating the sound crews.....we've tried reasoning with the sound crews as to what sound out front we're trying for.....

We've pretty much given-up.

Now we roll in, try to put on the best show we can, load the bus at the end of the show, go down the road and hope for better at the next job.





.....

I was triggering sound and lights for a gig. I didn't realise the prerecorded elements would sound so much like rolling thunder with such big subs, as my little PA starts rolling off at 100Hz, and on flat headphones it sounded fine. When I asked them they simply turned the subs off and with a crossover around 120Hz or whatever they had of 12dB/octave or whatever it was spot on.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I don't go to see many now, I used to but am getting too old, but did go to see ACDC at Wembley on their Black Ice tour and their sound was pretty much perfect (more than can be said for the support acts but they probably didn't have access to the whole sound system).

I also saw a 3 headliner bill of The Groundhogs, Focus, and one of the iterations of Wishbone Ash (the one with the original bassplayer/singer). The Groundhogs sound was abysmal, Focus sound was good, and Wishbone Ash had near CD quality sound. They each used their own sound guy so I guess that was the reason.

Focus? Was this recently?

 

[10cc]

It is interesting how you can go to the same venue, same kind of music, and one sounds horrible the other great. The only reason I can think of is that evidently, someone figured out that most people who show up for that band like it that way.

I must confess that I just don't get it. I've played shows where I thought our mix was terrible but people come up afterwards and say "you guys sounded awesome'. it's hard to believe, there must be something I'm missing.......

Yes. I've been to see (in the past two or three years) Van Halen, The Eagles, Paul McCartney and Duran Duran all in the same venue. Phillips Arena (Atlanta) not a place designed so much for music but either way the only one of those four that I could differentiate the bass was The Eagles. Paul McCartney wasn't too bad but still very muddy at times. Van Halen was a complete mess and waste of money

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I did hear that Ian Anderson is very particular.

Fixed that for you

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Yes. I've been to see (in the past two or three years) Van Halen, The Eagles, Paul McCartney and Duran Duran all in the same venue. Phillips Arena (Atlanta) not a place designed so much for music but either way the only one of those four that I could differentiate the bass was The Eagles. Paul McCartney wasn't too bad but still very muddy at times. Van Halen was a complete mess and waste of money

You'd kinda think they'd get the bass right at a McCartney show?