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Top-notch tube DIs: why no mid control?

#21
Johnny Mac said:
This thread brought to you by the Noble DI and the Broughton P15, both of which have bass and treble controls but nothing for the midrange.

Anyone have any idea why that is? I know the P15 is designed to model the sound of an Ampeg B15 which also lacked a mid control (I'm sure @Azure Skies can chime in as well), but considering the importance of midrange to being heard in a mix, it strikes me as an odd thing to omit. My personal tonal preferences need a healthy amount of mids, and given that I have to compete with loud distorted guitars in both of my bands, I'd likely be buried in the mix without the ability to bump them a bit. You can always add an EQ pedal, but now you're using two pieces of gear when one could do the job.

Thoughts? And are there any tube pre/DI's in the same class as the Noble or P15 that have a mid control? (I currently use a Le Bass but that's a much lower price point.)
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AngelCrusher said:
Exactly. A lot of people don't fully understand how EQ works. If you are not a studio guy who knows how to mix a record, it can be deadly to mess with EQ too much anyway. There is nothing worse than a bass player who boosted his mids too much. It's like a guitar player with scooped mids - just screams "local band".

The Q on the 2 band pres is pretty wide on the Noble. Additionally, I believe the peak points are 80hz and 4k. So when you boost the lows, you are also boosting the low mids, and the 4k point is also boosting the upper mids. The 2 knob setup saves a lot of bass players from themselves because those are really safe EQ points and you can easily hear when you need to dial it back down. A key part to understand this is while you are still getting mid boosts from turning the bass knob, you are not boosting at that midrange point. That's what can start to sound like crap real fast. Get an EQ setup with a narrower Q and boost at 80hz. Then try that same boost at 250k. It's not a great sound. Try a wide Q at 80hz and watch your lower mids come up as well, but it will sound a lot more natural.

It has similar EQ points as a Sadowsky preamp, except it also has tubes so you get way more mids due to the harmonics. Like you said, people always rave about how easy a Sadowsky fits into a mix. Well, go listen to a sadowksy through a Noble. That's when things really start to get sexy. And it is when you really start to hear what a good engineer does - he knows he can run a passive J or P, or a bass with a 2 band pre through some of his tube gear and get natural mids brought back in.

The Bartolini or MusicMan pres are set more extreme - 40hz and 10k. Its a lot easier to blow it on those pre's by over boosting and have way too much highs and lows if you don't know what you are doing. Additionally when you boost some frequencies going into a tube, it's a big difference compared to something like a Tech21 BDDI. I used one of those for years and know all about it. It's a totally different sound than the Noble in terms of richness and natural midrange.

Again, key words - natural midrange boost. Directly boosting mids with EQ when you don't really know what you are doing (or even when you do) can be a real bad idea.
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AngelCrusher saved me the hassle of a lot of typing :thumbsup:

"Boosting/cutting the mids" is such a wide, general idea that it loses all practical meaning: a steep Q cut at 300Hz sounds nothing like a wide Q cut at 800Hz.

As someone else already mentioned, if you have an overwhelming need for a mid control on your tube DI, just get a Jule Monique and call it a day.

A very happy day ;)
 
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#24
Johnny Mac said:
If he made a pedal version, I'd be all over it :D
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@juledude

Jule amps world headquarters in Santa Cruz houses the research and development wing ;) I wonder what Jule could pull off if encouraged to rehouse Monique into a pedal board friendly version. I can see a lot of people being into that.
 
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#26
Dominick C. said:
@juledude

Jule amps world headquarters in Santa Cruz houses the research and development wing ;) I wonder what Jule could pull off if encouraged to rehouse Monique into a pedal board friendly version. I can see a lot of people being into that.
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Would have to be a pretty big and solid pedal to house all those tubes -- and the guts are pretty tight as is... Maybe a footswitch?
 
#27
Dynacord said:
Would have to be a pretty big and solid pedal to house all those tubes -- and the guts are pretty tight as is... Maybe a footswitch?
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I was thinking Demeter style.

image.jpeg
 
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#28
Ric5 said:
That is why I won't use the sans amp ... no mid control ... also basses with 2 band preamps are also lame ...

BASS IS ABOUT MIDS
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You can get excellent mids with a properly designed 2-band preamp.

An Ampeg B-15N has a 2-band EQ. Do you consider that to be lame? If so I don't think you'll find a single recording studio or jazz bassist who will agree with you.
Dynacord said:
Would have to be a pretty big and solid pedal to house all those tubes -- and the guts are pretty tight as is... Maybe a footswitch?
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I think that transformer and very careful tube selection also has a lot to do with it, as does the chassis wiring layout. He even specs two different brands for the two 6SL7s he uses - so there appears to be some very precise design decisions and fine tuning going on with the Monique. I don't think he can change it up so drastically as to fit into a standard pedal format without altering its sonic characteristics. And he definitely would have to use a circuit board - which he made bones about not wanting to use on his website.

Dunno. Maybe it's doable.

But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.
 
#29
Jeff Scott said:
Dragan, of course, the Aguilar didn't sound good by reducing the mids all the way down! Next time, try leaving the mids at noon, which would be flat response, you may find it sounds really good, then. ;)
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I'm affraid you didn't catch what I wanted to say. I use Aguilar,and I am happy with it---while I dont like mids on the noon as you described,(it's more 9 o'clock on my settings for both controls), I was talking about how different are EQ settings in different preamps .
 
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#30
GMC said:
True, but if you boost the treble and bass controls...reduce the gain back to unity...you have cut wide the mids. If you cut bass and treble and add gain back to unity....you have boosted a wide band of mids.
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True, but the Noble is boost-only on the bass and treble. I think it's great as a DI, but for stage I need to either use and EQ pedal or go through the preamp section of a head instead of going straight to the power section.
 
#31
If you think of it as a DI, they have a lot more functionality than a Radial JDI, Countryman or REDDI. If you think of them as a preamp, they can be limiting if you want to go straight in to a power amp and you don't have 3 or 4 band EQ on your bass. The Empress ParaEQ is one of the quietest pedals out there and is a good way to add versatility (3 band parametric for $200-ish).
 
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#33
Because that's the character of the DI. DI's like the j48 don't have anything but low pass and pad, does that make it worse? Besides now so many basses are active with mid control, some of which are even semi-parametric.
 
#35
Dominick C. said:
@juledude

Jule amps world headquarters in Santa Cruz houses the research and development wing ;) I wonder what Jule could pull off if encouraged to rehouse Monique into a pedal board friendly version. I can see a lot of people being into that.
Click to expand...

Check out the Noble preamp/DI. It is exactly what you describe. Pedalboard tube preamp. Even has 9v and/or 12v outlets to power your other pedals.
 
#38
40Hz said:
You can get excellent mids with a properly designed 2-band preamp.

An Ampeg B-15N has a 2-band EQ. Do you consider that to be lame? If so I don't think you'll find a single recording studio or jazz bassist who will agree with you.
Click to expand...

Old bass amps with just treble and bass knobs were already mid heavy to begin with and the speakers were pretty mid heavy ... Old amps that had mid controls usually had harsh mids ...

Modern amps with better electronics have more of a flat response and there you can use a mid control ... I do not own any bass amps with just bass and treble ...

But I was specifically talking about preamps built into the bass ... I prefer 3 or 4 band models ... I have never heard a good sounding 2 band preamp ... my 2 favorite preamps and the east 3 band with sweepable mids or the audere 4 band preamp withhigh mids and low mids. All of my effects pedals have mid controls as well ...

I do not use, or buy, or own anything that only has bass, treble, and volume knobs ...

I own 3 ampeg heads and the all have mid controls and a graphic eq ... I love the tone
 
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#39
Ric5 said:
Old bass amps with just treble and bass knobs were already mid heavy to begin with and the speakers were pretty mid heavy ... Old amps that had mid controls usually had harsh mids ...

Modern amps with better electronics have more of a flat response and there you can use a mid control ... I do not own any bass amps with just bass and treble ...

But I was specifically talking about preamps built into the bass ... I prefer 3 or 4 band models ... I have never heard a good sounding 2 band preamp ... my 2 favorite preamps and the east 3 band with sweepable mids or the audere 4 band preamp withhigh mids and low mids. All of my effects pedals have mid controls as well ...

I do not use, or buy, or own anything that only has bass, treble, and volume knobs ...

I own 3 ampeg heads and the all have mid controls and a graphic eq ... I love the tone
Click to expand...

I prefer the baxandall stack I have in my B-15. But I also like the setup Ampeg uses in their heads which have the more standard bass/treble boost FMV configuration which they've also jazzed up a bit. (I'm a long-time Ampeg user.) But I still prefer a Bax. I can dial in exactly what I'm looking for with one of those in seconds. Maybe because I've been using one since '69. So it's become second nature to me by now.

I've got an onboard 4-band semi-parametric graphic EQ on my SWR head. It works. But it's not my favorite way to tone sculpt.

I'm also not too up on onboard preamps. I have one in my Spector 5-string and in my Godin and Epi ABG. But I pretty much take them as givens. So I'll have to take your word on what works best for those.

I do plan on grabbing one of those Audere Jazz 4-bands to play with however. So I'll soon know if something like that works better for me.

I guess in the end it all comes down to your own personal workflow. No right or wrong really as long as it gets the job done for person using it. :)
 

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