Trying to get the same tone from amp and PA

[Iristone]

I think it's a common wisdom not to make an enemy of the sound guy. I used to be severely humilated by one, and further confrontation led to nothing but the cancellation of the gig.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

So this may be a dumb question...Forgive me if the answer is obvious. I’ve had this issue for a while and it drives me crazy. So when I’m playing shows we always have a sound guy and I’m always running into the PA from my amp head. I’ve noticed before though that the sound coming out of my amp is different from the sound coming out of the PA. Usually what I hear from the PA is much more clacky yet more defined, whereas what I hear behind me is “just right” because it’s how I’ve tweaked it at home. I assume this problem is because of my cabinet...but I wanted some more knowledgeable opinions. How can I ensure that the sound coming out of my amp behind me is the same sound the audience is getting out front?

The first thing you need to do is make a recording of the ambient sound mix in the room. Then get some time with the sound engineer to review and discuss, with civilly and with much tact.

As for your cab I’m not so sure that would be the issue, it’s more about how how much sound energy you create with your rig. If your rig creating a lot of low end that coming of the stage into the room, the sound engineer has to compensate with the negative image of what you are creating so it’s balanced in the house.

I play with FOH all the time and my rig is my personal monitor. I’m the only one that needs to hear it. That way, I’m not forcing the sound engineer to work around me. If anybody else need to hear the bass, can get it in their monitor, not from my rig. JMO.

 

[Acoop]

It ain't never going to happen. ... The best you can do is, 1) practice, 2) have a 'proven' great sounding bass, 3) a great preamp and stage sound, 4) a clean signal to the board and sit back ... That's all you need. ... The sound man will decide whether your sound, which you've chosen to feed to the board, will be up front in the mix or buried in the back. ... It's that simple. ... If I want to be heard, I show up with my all 74 original Jazz bass, plug in and accept thanks from the sound man. ... Clean is king.

 

[agedhorse]

It ain't never going to happen. ... The best you can do is, 1) practice, 2) have a 'proven' great sounding bass, 3) a great preamp and stage sound, 4) a clean signal to the board and sit back ... That's all you need. ... The sound man will decide whether your sound, which you've chosen to feed to the board, will be up front in the mix or buried in the back. ... It's that simple. ... If I want to be heard, I show up with my all 74 original Jazz bass, plug in and accept thanks from the sound man. ... Clean is king.

Well, this isn't how it works in the real world with real (qualified) sound guys. If they know what they are doing, the bass will sit in the mix, neither buried or up front.

 

[bucephylus]

So, my hopefully last comment in this thread, which is now a good bit off track, is that I am finding the bass buried in the mix to be increasingly common IN MY CIRCLES. OK, fine, it is what it is.

But, where it gets truly frustrating is during one of those rare moments with a, gasp, bass break. You know, bass breaks actually happen. Newsflash. There is actually a bass break in Brown Eyed Girl. Good Heavens. But, now, when that happens, the typical SE (at least around these parts) is both unaware of the part (even in Browns Eyed Girl? Sheesh), and unable to respond fast enough. So, the solo bass part gets played, but is unfathomably nowhere in the mains. Which is utterly hilarious, when there is no back line. Bass Mime, anyone?

Whatever. In ensemble play, there are things called dynamics. Parts go in and out of various places in the mix. With decent musicians controlling their own back lines in musically responsible ways, this happens. With a single SE, it MAY happen; but the whole burden for the dynamics is on the one person. Running a board is NOT set it and forget it. Which I also see all too often.

OK, end of complaining. Is it possible to get useful bass tone out of FOH? Yes, IF both SE and bass player do a ton of work. Back to your regularly scheduled discussion

 

[agedhorse]

Actually, as you get into the better bands (where the players understand dynamics, understand playing together with each other rather than at each other, where there are arrangements that provide time and space for the parts), mixing can be very much a "set and forget" environment with minor adjustment being made as needed.

I would say that >50% of my audio gigs were like this, my job was to set the band up so that their dynamics governed the mix, and I did not need to babysit or micromanage these pros. The more professional the band, the tighter the band, the easier my job was. The very worst acts to work with by far were the local hot shots who didn't know what they didn't know, didn't play together as a band but more like a group of guys who played individual parts without any consideration for the other player's parts, and where each player demanded that everybody accommodate them individually rather than as an ensemble. You can probably imagine what a CF it was, contentious relationships all around.

 

[micguy]

Hmm, humor seems to have evaded you.

Not the issue. There have been a lot of posts on here where people are hostile with sound folks; we need to change that.

 

[bassfreakah]

on the big outside gigs when we were not the headline act, a good direct box before the amp strait from the bass, was the best you could ask for. But if you had a great sounding bass, all was good. then the sound guys could work on the vocals, B3 organ and sax or whatever. To have a great sound as a whole band is the most important to me.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

The best thing I ever did for Amp vs PA sound was buy a wireless so I could go stand at the back with the SE and other various points in the room. It helped me adjust my amp better as well as be able to work with the PA until we got the right sound. ymmv.

That's right on. I've had various wireless set-ups for a number of years and I always head to the back of the room; walk across the back; and then work my way back towards the stage. You'll hear right away if something is off with your sound or if you're too loud or too soft. Wireless are absolutely great for giving you the freedom to see how it sounds in the audience.

 

[bucephylus]

Actually, as you get into the better bands (where the players understand dynamics, understand playing together with each other rather than at each other, where there are arrangements that provide time and space for the parts), mixing can be very much a "set and forget" environment with minor adjustment being made as needed.

I would say that >50% of my audio gigs were like this, my job was to set the band up so that their dynamics governed the mix, and I did not need to babysit or micromanage these pros. The more professional the band, the tighter the band, the easier my job was. The very worst acts to work with by far were the local hot shots who didn't know what they didn't know, didn't play together as a band but more like a group of guys who played individual parts without any consideration for the other player's parts, and where each player demanded that everybody accommodate them individually rather than as an ensemble. You can probably imagine what a CF it was, contentious relationships all around.

Correct. First clue that the SE isn’t on top of things is when they don’t do what you described.

I think a big part of this issue is that the Behringer boards have pushed the Ampless thing down to levels where the players are competent (more or less), but the pay doesn’t attract learned SE’s. Instead, we get the singer’s brother.

I agree with you, Andy, that the big stages don’t normally have this issue. My SE issue is that competent players will play for low wages; but, competent SE’s are generally unavailable for those gigs. it’s just a practical matter.

 

[JimmyM]

Not the issue. There have been a lot of posts on here where people are hostile with sound folks; we need to change that.

I think it's a common wisdom not to make an enemy of the sound guy. I used to be severely humilated by one, and further confrontation led to nothing but the cancellation of the gig.

I have seen sound folks be more hostile with bands a million times more than vice versa.

 

[Michedelic]

Not the issue. There have been a lot of posts on here where people are hostile with sound folks; we need to change that.

I’ve been the sound guy almost as much as I’ve been on stage(sometimes both at once), doing my best to make everybody sound good under the circumstances, and I’ve also had my share of pissant bands.

 

[Jim Carr]

So this may be a dumb question...Forgive me if the answer is obvious. I’ve had this issue for a while and it drives me crazy. So when I’m playing shows we always have a sound guy and I’m always running into the PA from my amp head. I’ve noticed before though that the sound coming out of my amp is different from the sound coming out of the PA. Usually what I hear from the PA is much more clacky yet more defined, whereas what I hear behind me is “just right” because it’s how I’ve tweaked it at home. I assume this problem is because of my cabinet...but I wanted some more knowledgeable opinions. How can I ensure that the sound coming out of my amp behind me is the same sound the audience is getting out front?

Set your amp as flat as possible. DI the bass to the PA before the amp (aka Pre). Control all of your amp sound from your instruments onboard EQ. That's as close as you will ever get, IME. A good SE will do what's needed.

 

[agedhorse]

I have seen sound folks be more hostile with bands a million times more than vice versa.

I've been on the receiving end and when they start talking crap before they even meet the sound guy you know it's going to be one of those days.

 

[DaveDeVille]

 

[Plain Old Barry]

I have seen sound folks be more hostile with bands a million times more than vice versa.

As a guy who's mixed maybe 2500 shows I couldn't agree more. Many times as a band engineer I've caught attitude before the house guy even knew I was the FOH person, he was thinking I was only the road manager. When not mixing bands I've been the system engineer with several sound companies, I vowed never to be THAT guy.

Those guys (rarely women, usually guys) suck, and often either lack skills or have very narrow experience... But they're out there, and and part of a traveling act's success requires that guy's cooperation. A little ass kissing can go a long way, and you won't have to see the dope again after a few hours.

Again, this is where a wireless and the right words can go a long way towards getting your band's sound recreated.

 

[Wasnex]

Actually, as you get into the better bands (where the players understand dynamics, understand playing together with each other rather than at each other, where there are arrangements that provide time and space for the parts), mixing can be very much a "set and forget" environment with minor adjustment being made as needed.

I would say that >50% of my audio gigs were like this, my job was to set the band up so that their dynamics governed the mix, and I did not need to babysit or micromanage these pros. The more professional the band, the tighter the band, the easier my job was. The very worst acts to work with by far were the local hot shots who didn't know what they didn't know, didn't play together as a band but more like a group of guys who played individual parts without any consideration for the other player's parts, and where each player demanded that everybody accommodate them individually rather than as an ensemble. You can probably imagine what a CF it was, contentious relationships all around.

I found that this occurred on occasion with me. It wasn't really a matter of the musicians as I worked with the same players on a regular basis and they were generally very skilled. I had more to do with dealing with really poor acoustics and a portable sound system with inadequate pattern control, that was installed and tuned quickly by ear.

If the room was great and the system and channels were dialed in well, I often found that there was far less for me to do. More often than not, I found that I was fighting with the room. I suspect this was exacerbated because the musicians were probably fighting with the room a bit as well.

Another factor is our audience was older and very sensitive to SPL, so it was typically very challenging to get the FOH mix over the stage wash without blowing the audience out. During soundcheck I generally run the system up quite a bit louder than I use in the show so I know if there are problems with gain before feedback. I learned that 5-10dB of extra SPL can make a huge difference in the clarity of a mix, but then it's uncomfortably loud and patrons have an unpleasant experience. My preference is to sacrifice some clarity to keep the volume at a reasonable level.

 

[Jim Carr]

I've been on the receiving end and when they start talking crap before they even meet the sound guy you know it's going to be one of those days.

I've found that when the sound on stage is wrong, the SE will usually strive to fix it. IME, there is a trend toward making the bass drum so huge that everything in the bottom octave of the bass guitar or upright is buried. Where are these kids learning this, lol!

 

[Wasnex]

I have seen sound folks be more hostile with bands a million times more than vice versa.

There is plenty of blame to go around. I can say I have been both offended and offensive as both a bass player and an audio tech.

Usually a gig will involve multiple band members and one audio tech, so I think it's highly likely that one or more band members is going to be a problem on every gig. In contrast if a band actually hires it's own audio techs, they should be able to eventually find one they like to work with.

Also there seems to be a fairly prevalent attitude among musicians that the audio tech should be a mindless servant who follows orders without question rather than a partner or team member who applies skill and judgment. An expert audio tech is going to know way more about mixing and how to get a good sound at FOH than the average band member. Imagine how frustrating it must be for someone who has worked hard to amass knowledge and develop specialized skills to work with a group people who want to force them to do things that are going to produce bad results and make them look unprofessional.

If the sound is bad, it's only natural to blame the audio, but in truth the audio tech often does not have sufficient control to correct the problem. Bad sound can often be traced back to a combination of bad acoustics, insufficient system, and unwillingness to compromise on the musicians part...and sometimes it's even the audio techs fault.

IMHO in order to do the best job, there needs to be dialogue and compromise; it's a two-way street. The focus should be on delivering the best possible product to the audience. In order for the show to occur, the musicians have to hear, but unfortunately it's generally impossible for every musician to hear as well as he/she wants. If anyone hears perfectly, it's typically going to cause problems for someone else, and/or degrade sound for the audience. So for the sake of the show, the musician need to learn to live with the idea of hearing well enough to get the job done.

The stage volume musicians require to get the job done is typically going to be loud enough that it will degrade the front of house mix somewhat. So the audio tech also has to understand and accept the concept of good enough. From an audio tech's perspective, ideally there would be no stage wash. But this is unrealistic because the musicians can't play unless they can hear each other. So both the musician's and audio tech need to be able to negotiate a reasonable compromise that best satisfies the audience's needs. The musicians need to be loud enough to perform well, but not so loud that they significantly degrade the quality of the mix or blow the room out.

The exception of course would be if the musicians used IEMs and E drums. Although this is becoming more and more common, many musicians still do not feel comfortable in IEMs.

 

[Wasnex]

As a guy who's mixed maybe 2500 shows I couldn't agree more. Many times as a band engineer I've caught attitude before the house guy even knew I was the FOH person, he was thinking I was only the road manager. When not mixing bands I've been the system engineer with several sound companies, I vowed never to be THAT guy.

Those guys (rarely women, usually guys) suck, and often either lack skills or have very narrow experience... But they're out there, and and part of a traveling act's success requires that guy's cooperation. A little ass kissing can go a long way, and you won't have to see the dope again after a few hours.

Again, this is where a wireless and the right words can go a long way towards getting your band's sound recreated.

To be fair, there are plenty of incompetent and deaf audio techs with an attitude. There are also plenty of hack musicians with an attitude.