Trying to get the same tone from amp and PA

[dkelley]

It's only "identical" with identical speakers, and certainly not everywhere in the venue. This is the crux of the dilemma.

Right... and that is how life will always be.

If it isn't the same everywhere in the venue, then that is on the venue's acoustic, sound system, and engineers... not on us.

But having the same identical source going into your amp and into the mains and monitors, and having your amp not alter that tone (so it becomes FRFR which hopefully the mains and monitors strive to get close to also).. is as good as it can get. The engineering for the mains and the various speakers throughout a venue, the artificially added time delays in the speakers that are setup further from the stage so the time matches with that of the mains... all of that is way way outside of what we, as musicians, have control over.

The live mains sound engineers will alter your tone, intentionally, and there's not much we can do about it since it's way bast our hands as musicians, other than complain to the engineers, I guess.

IMHO

 

[lfmn16]

How can I ensure that the sound coming out of my amp behind me is the same sound the audience is getting out front?

The short answer - you can't. The soundman doesn't reproduce YOUR sound, he reproduces the sound HE thinks you should have. If you're paying him, you can have a talk with him to see if you can work this out, but good luck with that. I would recommend at least trying to work with him, there may be valid reasons why he is not reproducing "your" sound, or it may be that he does't like your sound so tough shirt.

Soundmen are like every other occupation - a handful really good, a handful really bad and the rest, meh.

Didn't bother to read the answers, but if this is like most threads like yours, everyone will blame you and assume that YOU don't know what you're doing.

 

[Wasnex]

Personally I find ir hard to believe that a mike, which has its own response curve, probably not unlike a low pass filter at the bottom end, is intrinsically more accurate than a post eq DI.

In my exceeding limited sound career the first thing one did was to lift and drop the faders on each instrument to get the base pa sound as close to the backline sound as possible in available time. From that baseline it was then a question of making the whole band sound as good as possible.

If the speakers are full range flat response (FRFR) the Post DI will be very similar to the sound that comes out of the speaker. Also most FRFR cab are multi-way so it's a bit of a challenge to mic them.

Traditional speakers tend to use a single type of driver that is not flat and has limited bandwidth. If the drivers are not flat, then the mic will more accurately capture the sound of the speaker than the Post DI. Speakers often filter out the highs, so many player boost the highs and mids on their amp to get the sound the like. If they use a Post DI, the sound will be significantly brighter than the speaker.

EVM15L driver response

EV RE20 response

The RE20 is going to give a pretty accurate representation of the speaker and any EQ inputs you use.

The Post DI will only reflect the EQ inputs. If for example if you could EQ the EVM15L to be flat, the Post DI signal would be a mirror image of figure 2.

It will also have extended frequency response unless you use an HPF or speaker SIM to limit the highs.

 

[Wasnex]

44 years front of house here. COULD NOT DISAGREE MORE!!!

So your #1 priority is bass?

I am somewhat of a perfectionist and also a control freak, and unfortunately bass is usually one of the lowest things on my list; mainly because there is typically little I can do to fix it. Not that I don't put significant time and effort into trying to dial it in using every trick I know. But ultimately I find it's more in important to focus on the matters that I can actually control and improve.

Vocals and melody is where my primary focus lays. If an instrument is already burying the vocals before I put it in the system, the channel fader gets pushed all the way down.

Often if I could mix 10-15dB hotter I could make the bass sound fabulous. But given the choice, I will prioritize mixing at an appropriate volume over getting the best bass possible.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

So this may be a dumb question...Forgive me if the answer is obvious. I’ve had this issue for a while and it drives me crazy. So when I’m playing shows we always have a sound guy and I’m always running into the PA from my amp head. I’ve noticed before though that the sound coming out of my amp is different from the sound coming out of the PA. Usually what I hear from the PA is much more clacky yet more defined, whereas what I hear behind me is “just right” because it’s how I’ve tweaked it at home. I assume this problem is because of my cabinet...but I wanted some more knowledgeable opinions. How can I ensure that the sound coming out of my amp behind me is the same sound the audience is getting out front?

Just a simple question for you that might be the reason. Are you sending a pre-EQ or post EQ signal out of the DI of your amp? If it is pre-EQ, then none of the tweaks you make are going to the board. If you send a "post-EQ" signal, that will include your tweaks. If you really want the PA to "have the best chance" of sounding like your cab, you'll need to have them mic your cab. Even then, the sound tech may very well put his own tweaks into your sound because he has a different idea of what you should sound like.

It's probably a really good idea to have a conversation with your sound-tech about it.

 

[Wasnex]

Just a simple question for you that might be the reason. Are you sending a pre-EQ or post EQ signal out of the DI of your amp? If it is pre-EQ, then none of the tweaks you make are going to the board. If you send a "post-EQ" signal, that will include your tweaks. If you really want the PA to "have the best chance" of sounding like your cab, you'll need to have them mic your cab. Even then, the sound tech may very well put his own tweaks into your sound because he has a different idea of what you should sound like.

It's probably a really good idea to have a conversation with your sound-tech about it.

I usually run a DI between my bass and the input of the amp. In my experience, this is the typical way most audio techs prefer, but it's not ideal for all circumstances. My amp is for my on-stage monitoring needs, and I don't consider it an integral part of my sound; so it works well for me.

Whenever an amp is considered essential to the players tone, I prefer mic'ing the cab.

When I am working with a new bassist as an audio tech, I like to come up on stage and talk about sound concepts listen to their rig a bit, if they feel it's relevant. I do this with guitarists as well.

My stage sound as a bassist is not relevant to FOH sound. I setup and adjust my amp so I can hear clearly at the lowest possible volume. My stage sound is very bright and clear, but I use a light and clean technique so it's not typically clanky unless I want it to be.

In my experience working with guest sound techs, it's fairly common for them to do the same type of interview that I do. Unfortunately an interview is not always possible due to time constraints. When I was a touring bassist, we worked a lot of stuff out over the phone long before performances. This sometimes included interviews between the audio tech at venues and the individual musicians in our band.

 

[Hundred proof]

Yeah I got a signal

 

[trevcda]

I build my rig around this whole issue. I've got an old ADA MP-2 for my preamp with an old TC Electronics Triple-C ...

Brief thread swerve: What did you prefer about the MP-2 vs the MB-1 for this use?

 

[cujodos]

There are many different ways to Eq and produce a bass sound. Question is can you produce the same sound from two different sources. No.

 

[Charlzm]

The sound you are sending to FOH is only the sound person's starting point. He/she will fold, spindle, mutilate, improve or preserve your sound based on how it sounds in the room and how it sounds with the rest of the band.

For just one more example: Trace Elliot amps were known for having a certain voicing: a scooped sound (meaning more highs and lows than mids). When you engage the Trace preset, the sound coming out of the amp is suddenly awesome. Problem is, those lows might get lost in the mud of a boomy low end room/PA and the highs disappear amongst the guitars/drums/vocals etc...

What sounds good all by itself often sounds less than optimal when you start mixing other instruments and then amplifying it out into a space.

If you really trust your sound person, send him/her a clean DI signal along with your "final" tone.

 

[Plain Old Barry]

So this may be a dumb question...Forgive me if the answer is obvious. I’ve had this issue for a while and it drives me crazy. So when I’m playing shows we always have a sound guy and I’m always running into the PA from my amp head. I’ve noticed before though that the sound coming out of my amp is different from the sound coming out of the PA. Usually what I hear from the PA is much more clacky yet more defined, whereas what I hear behind me is “just right” because it’s how I’ve tweaked it at home. I assume this problem is because of my cabinet...but I wanted some more knowledgeable opinions. How can I ensure that the sound coming out of my amp behind me is the same sound the audience is getting out front?

As a bassist and an experienced FOH mixer...

- Have him hear your stage sound... Tell him you want THAT. Add a cabinet mic to the DI if you're not doing it already.

- Stand at FOH during sound check. Talk to the mixer.

- If the two steps above don't help, talk to the band about exploring different FOH people.

If I'm at FOH, my job is to make the band sound the way the band expects to sound, not the way I would prefer. I've mixed everything from metal to southern rock to latin jazz to hardcore punk to hardcore reggae. Every show was different, and the client has the final say.

Have fun!

 

[RumbleBot]

Brief thread swerve: What did you prefer about the MP-2 vs the MB-1 for this use?

Better mid control and drive options, parametric and graphic eq, and cabinet stimulated xlr output.

 

[packhowitzer]

The best thing I ever did for Amp vs PA sound was buy a wireless so I could go stand at the back with the SE and other various points in the room. It helped me adjust my amp better as well as be able to work with the PA until we got the right sound. ymmv.

 

[Michedelic]

Introduce the sound person to some dead presidents and tell ‘em to take care of you(and mumble something about how hard it would be to move faders with bandaged hands).

 

[Ric5]

So this may be a dumb question...Forgive me if the answer is obvious. I’ve had this issue for a while and it drives me crazy. So when I’m playing shows we always have a sound guy and I’m always running into the PA from my amp head. I’ve noticed before though that the sound coming out of my amp is different from the sound coming out of the PA. Usually what I hear from the PA is much more clacky yet more defined, whereas what I hear behind me is “just right” because it’s how I’ve tweaked it at home. I assume this problem is because of my cabinet...but I wanted some more knowledgeable opinions. How can I ensure that the sound coming out of my amp behind me is the same sound the audience is getting out front?

don't run a line out … instead mike it with an sm57

 

[Downunderwonder]

don't run a line out … instead mike it with an sm57

Different rodeo.

 

[micguy]

I play ampless gigs, so what I hear is pretty close to what comes out of the PA - my in ears are full range drivers, just like the PA. On my pedalboard, I have a Broughton low pass filter - it's a 2 pole variable filter, which has a knob you can use to set the amount of high frequency rolloff to mimic a speaker. Very simple, very effective. You can also use a cabinet emulator, but I find the Broughton is every bit as effective, and much more straightforward to use.

The point of all this is, if you want what comes out of the PA to sound like what comes out of your cabinet, you need to take responsibility for making sure the feed going to FOH sounds like you want it to - if you don't do that, you're expecting the FOH person to read your mind (or hear the sound in your head) somehow, which isn't his or her job.

 

[micguy]

Introduce the sound person to some dead presidents and tell ‘em to take care of you(and mumble something about how hard it would be to move faders with bandaged hands).

Tipping the sound person might be useful, but threats are absolutely the wrong thing to even think about doing. The FOH person can make or break your band's sound, do you really want an adversarial relationship with someone that has that power? 99 times out of 100, the FOH person wants to do a good job; being nice is the way to get what you want. The other 1? It still doesn't hurt to be nice.

 

[Michedelic]

Tipping the sound person might be useful, but threats are absolutely the wrong thing to even think about doing. The FOH person can make or break your band's sound, do you really want an adversarial relationship with someone that has that power? 99 times out of 100, the FOH person wants to do a good job; being nice is the way to get what you want. The other 1? It still doesn't hurt to be nice.

Hmm, humor seems to have evaded you.

 

[Iristone]

I used to start a thread called "Let's Define Loudness Freedom" about a similar issue, and I think guys like JimmyM have provided great insights there. I think depending on your stage volume, PA can either be a reinforcement or the heavy lifting. In the latter case, an amp simlator or a microphone can be the ticket.
Meanwhile, John Entwistle solved this problem by entirely bypassing the PA, instead using 1,200w (3,520w peak) of Sunn heads into 14x12 and 4x18 cabinetry.