I do all my eq tweakings on my boss gt1b. My amp is always flat, is there only for amplifi my signal. So, when playing live I send my signal through PA and use my amp as monitor and now is when I tweak the AMP eq settings...some places are more bassy than others so I cut or boost frequencies to hear me good while performing. Cause I know the sound I crafted home or on rehearsals is going ok through PA...so sometimes it's an advantage having two different sounds. I don't know if you get my point haha...
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Trying to get the same tone from amp and PA
- Thread starter Berberdeng
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If 6,000 people can ask what 8+8 ohms is I can repeat myself.
I work front of house for a lot of big names, I'm a bass player, and one of my regular clients is a very famous bass player.
FOH bass sound comes up on TB a lot. Most of the topics that come up is that bass players don't agree with FOH people about what you bass should sound like. So, again.
- The FOH person works for you. If he doesn't agree to that, Wendy's is hiring.
- Work with FOH. Talk to him. Do soundcheck from behind the board. Learn something about sound reinforcement so you can talk on the same level. Seize control if you have to.
- Your onstage sound, and your FOH sound can and most likely should be different. Create a stage sound with emphasis on your bandmates hearing you well, and create FOH sound that sounds like what you want the audience to hear.
- The P.A. system is much higher fidelity than your stage amp. FOH people hear 28 HZ. all the time. 28HZ. on stage would be a crappy tone. Decide if what FOH is doing is actually a better audience tone, even if it doesn't agree with what's in your head. This comes from experience (and you probably don't have 16 18" speakers in your stage rig.)
- We are dealing with art. Art is subjective. Communication is the key.
- When I started working with Prakash John I spent literally hours working with him on his FOH sound, I stood on stage for whole songs, I listened to all his albums, we discussed over dinner what his tastes were. THEN, we starting working on how the drum sound should work with his sound. We experimented with mics, and cymbals to get into those little sparse areas of his sound and fill them with drums sounds. Once again- We communicated.
Circling back the the very wording of the thread title- You probably don't want the same sound stage v. FOH. but you should know WHY.
I work front of house for a lot of big names, I'm a bass player, and one of my regular clients is a very famous bass player.
FOH bass sound comes up on TB a lot. Most of the topics that come up is that bass players don't agree with FOH people about what you bass should sound like. So, again.
- The FOH person works for you. If he doesn't agree to that, Wendy's is hiring.
- Work with FOH. Talk to him. Do soundcheck from behind the board. Learn something about sound reinforcement so you can talk on the same level. Seize control if you have to.
- Your onstage sound, and your FOH sound can and most likely should be different. Create a stage sound with emphasis on your bandmates hearing you well, and create FOH sound that sounds like what you want the audience to hear.
- The P.A. system is much higher fidelity than your stage amp. FOH people hear 28 HZ. all the time. 28HZ. on stage would be a crappy tone. Decide if what FOH is doing is actually a better audience tone, even if it doesn't agree with what's in your head. This comes from experience (and you probably don't have 16 18" speakers in your stage rig.)
- We are dealing with art. Art is subjective. Communication is the key.
- When I started working with Prakash John I spent literally hours working with him on his FOH sound, I stood on stage for whole songs, I listened to all his albums, we discussed over dinner what his tastes were. THEN, we starting working on how the drum sound should work with his sound. We experimented with mics, and cymbals to get into those little sparse areas of his sound and fill them with drums sounds. Once again- We communicated.
Circling back the the very wording of the thread title- You probably don't want the same sound stage v. FOH. but you should know WHY.
Personally I find ir hard to believe that a mike, which has its own response curve, probably not unlike a low pass filter at the bottom end, is intrinsically more accurate than a post eq DI.
In my exceeding limited sound career the first thing one did was to lift and drop the faders on each instrument to get the base pa sound as close to the backline sound as possible in available time. From that baseline it was then a question of making the whole band sound as good as possible.
- Feb 12, 2006
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- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
If the results that the FOH guy is getting is well received, maybe he is focusing on the bigger picture and is fitting you IN THE MIX better than your on stage tone might work in the mix. That's an entirely different tone than for solo bass.
Sometimes it's a good thing to trust them.
Sometimes it's a good thing to trust them.
IMHO, this is THE single greatest question / issue facing bass players today. And, some excellent answers from folks like @Gearhead17, @Wasnex, and @agedhorse.
The actual answer IME is that the FOH result depends entirely on the Sound Engineer. The bass player may do their best to constructively contribute to the result; but, the SE ultimately decides everything. Which, if we are talking about a well trained and skilled SE with great ears, can be a magnificent result. But, if the SE has other priorities and references the bass sound to that of their 2000W subwoofer 1995 Honda Civic, the result can be a complete train wreck. And while younger SE’s may err in that direction, the older amateurs will often tend to mix with the rhythm guitars and kick drum burying everything else. In short, there are many ways that FOH mixes and tones can be abused. And, let’s not even get into the issues related to bi-amping and tri-amping, which are standard in FOH and nearly abandoned for self standing bass amps.
And, the SE has about 40 different things that they have to pay attention to, bass being nearly the least of them in many cases. Multiply that number by the half dozen or so tone controls for each element; and we’re talking about a pretty challenging job.
In short, this is a frustration which is unlikely to go away any time soon. As others have stated, the best you can do is send a high quality signal to the board, contribute constructively when asked, and smile for the folks when you are playing. It’s a crummy job, but someone’s got to do it.
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I haven't played a ton of gigs, maybe 20, but the time I was most pleased with my FOH sound was when my cab was mic'd. This was at The Knitting Factory in Reno and there were two sound guys that were awesome. Of course I was only able to hear what it sounded like from the front of the stage because I didn't have a wireless. This was with a 2 guitar metal band.
LOL. In your case, I have no doubts. As stated, I was referencing the more general case that many, if not most of us are dealing with. You can come be our SE ANY time!
imo it is always best to have a great bass sound from your bass!!! We toured with the same sound man everynight. So on slow nights he would mike my flat back 810, or run out of my amps di SVT 2 pro, or direct box. I my bass was a modulus or a Roscoe. after years of experimenting and recordings the di and miked cab were the key. My sound is a big phat CLEAN bass No distortion at all. Grateful dead type music. but in the end, our sound man told me is was my bass that always made the great tone and how i played it. this is what worked for me so........
I build my rig around this whole issue. I've got an old ADA MP-2 for my preamp with an old TC Electronics Triple-C multi-band compressor through its effect loop in my small rack. I get most of my sound from that. The ADA has cab simulated XLR outs (2x12 and 4x12 modes) that I use for recording or sending to FOH. I'm giving the sound guy the exact same signal that I record with and so far they been pretty appreciative for it. My amp head and cabs are there get that sound into the air for the stage.
the PA is for the Whole mix , and is EQ'd for the room ... according to whomever is running it .!??!
your stage amp sounds good for your bass just a few feet away ...
getting them to sound the same has always been a bit of a challenge for me also ... and i usually run the PA from stage .. !!
if you're lucky , the sound guy is also a bassist .. !!
if the band , as in You , are paying them ... then go adjust your eq on your channel as you see fit .. !!
if not , beg them to come listen to your sound on stage and then try to replicate it thru their PA ..
your stage amp sounds good for your bass just a few feet away ...
getting them to sound the same has always been a bit of a challenge for me also ... and i usually run the PA from stage .. !!
if you're lucky , the sound guy is also a bassist .. !!
if the band , as in You , are paying them ... then go adjust your eq on your channel as you see fit .. !!
if not , beg them to come listen to your sound on stage and then try to replicate it thru their PA ..
It can never be the same. What you're hearing from your amp is near-field and probably sounds considerably different in the room. The PA's job is to come as close to that as possible, maybe, while still fitting it into the overall mix around the room in the most musical way possible. I find it's best if the sound person knows how I like it to sound, and that he/she feels free to let me know what they need from me to make their job easier out front. It's all a big compromise in a live situation.
Years ago I had a long chat with Dream Theater's FOH guy, who was terribly nice, about John Myung's tone. John insists upon sending a post-EQ signal to the house, and while it sounds killer in front of his rig, there is nothing but rumble and clink out front. So it's important to let the sound person do what they do and allow them plenty of discretion to do it.
John
- Feb 12, 2006
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43 years at FOH, I disagree. Generally I can fit the bass into the mix with a minimum of fuss and bother. Acoustic guitars, mandolin, reeds, acoustic piano, and vocals generally take more time and effort to fit into a mix.
Note that I am generally working with rock, folk, jazz, blues and international/world music so take my comments in that context.
Difference between speed and priority.
Bass is a high priority item, but yes, I get a great sound remarkably fast.
This is a huge part of it. The tone we like at home and up close on our amps is often not ideal for the FOH (too muddy, not enough mids, no highs, etc.). Ideally the SE is experienced and works the room. Also a huge factor that sound check in an empty space is much different when there are people in the seats (they seam to soak up some freqs). When I was starting out, I used to want my amp sound everywhere and would have it way too loud (limits the SE ability to mix)...as I have gained more playing experience I lean now towards quieter stage volume so that the SE can do their work in the FOH. Also, I have been playing direct without an amp in one venue for about a year. The wedge monitor has less bass presence (compared to my GK MB150 or my MarkBass 210), but cleaner mid and highs. With less stage volume I can hear more and the SE doesnt have to fight with a bunch of low end rumbling through the space off my amp.
My solution used to be to use amp modeling and no longer rely upon the amp to give me my tone, but have the tone come from the instrument level 1/4" output from a modeler.
Then I got fed up with it a few years ago, basically when I stopped playing professionally, and sold all my old modelers. They sounded pretty good but were getting old, and I also was tired of the complex workflow with menus.
Well this week I went back to modelers, but new tech that is far far FAR easier to use, immensely more "real" sounding (like, it sounds perfect to my ears and feels perfect to my fingers), and does bass great.
Helix LT. Amazing. But it's a big investment. I'm using it with my bass head through the line in. Just getting started with it, but it's already made me happy in ways I haven't felt in a long long time.
And your tone is identical everywhere.
Then I got fed up with it a few years ago, basically when I stopped playing professionally, and sold all my old modelers. They sounded pretty good but were getting old, and I also was tired of the complex workflow with menus.
Well this week I went back to modelers, but new tech that is far far FAR easier to use, immensely more "real" sounding (like, it sounds perfect to my ears and feels perfect to my fingers), and does bass great.
Helix LT. Amazing. But it's a big investment. I'm using it with my bass head through the line in. Just getting started with it, but it's already made me happy in ways I haven't felt in a long long time.
And your tone is identical everywhere.
As has been said earlier in this thread, what you hear on stage from the PA has almost nothing to do with what it sounds out in the house. There are so many factors to what goes into the PA sound that your best course of action is to talk with the FOH engineer, tell him/her what you like your bass to sound like, and leave it to them to make it sound that way the best they can. The FOH engineer's motto is to try to reproduce the sound while doing the least damage to it. You can rest assured your sound will be different because the FOH engineer is also fighting the problems presented by the PA rig, the room, bleed in the mics, a need to protect the PA rig from damage, and a thousand other things that we don't even know about. Just play, enjoy, and if the crowd has a good time the gig was a success.
You answered the question yourself.
You tweaked the sound of just the bass, in your home.
The "sound guy" tweaked the sound of the entire band, in the venue.
Further more, your cabinet is no longer in a small room, with soft furnishings, at a low / moderate volume.
Your cabinet is instead on (for example) a large, sprung stage, with a cavity below it, with hard surfaces, and at a louder volume.
Your cabinet is also contributing to the sound in the room, so the "sound guy" is reinforcing / compensating for that, through speakers that are in the room, beyond the proscenium arch.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,031
- 5
- 220,915
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
It's only "identical" with identical speakers, and certainly not everywhere in the venue. This is the crux of the dilemma.
Agreed, and also the FOH guy in many cases will be struggling with compromises to make the audience not complain.
Yup!
Go to YouTube and listen to The Beatles with Paul's Bass Isolated and you will hear that it is clanky, a bit distorted and not too smooth, most would say not good bass tone.
With the full band (song) it is thick and bouncy and what many call great bass tone.
The other instruments add to the overall sound. Let your sound guy do his thing.
Enjoy!
Especially at the 3:00 mark.
Here is the full Abby Road album for you to bounce around, checking sounds.
Search other band's isolated Bass Tracks and you will find the same thing.
Solo bass sounds like crap, but in the mix sounds fantastic.
(Most of the time and in my opinion.)
With the full band (song) it is thick and bouncy and what many call great bass tone.
The other instruments add to the overall sound. Let your sound guy do his thing.
Enjoy!
Especially at the 3:00 mark.
Here is the full Abby Road album for you to bounce around, checking sounds.
Search other band's isolated Bass Tracks and you will find the same thing.
Solo bass sounds like crap, but in the mix sounds fantastic.
(Most of the time and in my opinion.)
