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Tube power sections, what am I missing?

#141
JimmyM said:
eye-roll-in-motion-3.gif


Well I guess you better tell all these agile players like Stanley Clarke, Stefan Lessard, Tim LeFebvre, Tony Levin, Owen Biddle, Darryl Jones, Chris Squire, Dave Hope, Jon Reshard, plus a whole host of others (including me) how badly they're screwing up. My guess is they'll give you the same reaction Tina's giving you, except it won't look as cute.
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I meant REAL agility....have a hard time believing JP's rendition of Donna Lee is even possible with a VT amp. My two cents and thanks for your input...
 
#142
I am one of those that appreciates a mix of options. For small gigs I take my trusted Eden WT SS head. For the larger ones I use a rolling rackbag with my Alembic pre- and Crest Class D power-amp combo. Both are as warm and punchy as I could ever hope for.

But then I fired up my old Trace Elliot Quatra Valve head the other night. A few notes later and I let out a sigh. Ahhhhh.......I forgot how easy it is to listen to a tube power section (this one happens to be clean and resistant to breakup). There really is something to it. I wish I could deny it because it would be a lot easier to afford and haul my SS rigs.

And as much as I listen to Donna Lee I cannot find ANYTHING that a tube head played cleanly through 2 810s would even think about breaking a sweat over.
 
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#143
quickervicar said:
And as much as I listen to Donna Lee I cannot find ANYTHING that a tube head played cleanly through 2 810s would even think about breaking a sweat over.
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Of course! It's a silly assumption to make, and about the only thing sillier is saying someone like Stanley doesn't have "REAL agility." Might make a case for me not having real agility as I'm certainly no Stanley, but Stanley? Come on! The notes come out of ANY amp as quickly as you play them, and anyone who claims different is agenda pushing.
 
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#144
JimmyM said:
Of course! It's a silly assumption to make, and about the only thing sillier is saying someone like Stanley doesn't have "REAL agility." Might make a case for me not having real agility as I'm certainly no Stanley, but Stanley? Come on! The notes come out of ANY amp as quickly as you play them, and anyone who claims different is agenda pushing.
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Well, all I can say is that it's easier for me to play Donna Lee through an SS amp. With a tube amp the signal out of the output stage goes through pounds of E I iron stampings and copper. With SS, the speaker is virtually connected to the power rails through the amplifying devices augmenting the damping factor. This makes for much faster transient response and rise and fall time. For me, this is a shortcoming in tube design that one can learn to live with, kinda getting used to the turbo lag in a turbocharged engine and working around it as compared to the instant power of a supercharged engine.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE tube technology, in Hi-Fi and guitar amps. as a matter of fact, this is my latest project in modifying a 1940 Victor Projector amp for harmonica;
victor.jpg
 
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#145
quickervicar said:
I am one of those that appreciates a mix of options. For small gigs I take my trusted Eden WT SS head. For the larger ones I use a rolling rackbag with my Alembic pre- and Crest Class D power-amp combo. Both are as warm and punchy as I could ever hope for.

But then I fired up my old Trace Elliot Quatra Valve head the other night. A few notes later and I let out a sigh. Ahhhhh.......I forgot how easy it is to listen to a tube power section (this one happens to be clean and resistant to breakup). There really is something to it. I wish I could deny it because it would be a lot easier to afford and haul my SS rigs.

And as much as I listen to Donna Lee I cannot find ANYTHING that a tube head played cleanly through 2 810s would even think about breaking a sweat over.[/QUOT
JimmyM said:
Of course! It's a silly assumption to make, and about the only thing sillier is saying someone like Stanley doesn't have "REAL agility." Might make a case for me not having real agility as I'm certainly no Stanley, but Stanley? Come on! The notes come out of ANY amp as quickly as you play them, and anyone who claims different is agenda pushing.
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Stanley? One of my faves but lacking the agility of JP when pushing 16ths. Again, mho.
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#146
After 20+ years of thinking it's just the placebo effect, I played a 70s SVT at concert volume in June this year. A PF-50T and PF-500 were also there.

The Tube Power section has a responsive-ness, while subtle, adds to what I can do with the sound. It's very mild and natural compression that fosters expression you might never be able to AB it or actually hear a difference. For me it's a different feeling that I found out I like.
 
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#147
jazzbass_5 said:
Can someone explain what I'm missing with a tube power section? I'll take the plunge if needed at some point.

View attachment 1178877
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Everything.

To be fair though, I owned an SVP Pro for years and tried it with a Mesa Strategy 400,500, and power section of a Peavey Classic 400 but found it too mushy until I ran it through a solid state power amp. I sold all of that long ago, been a tube guy for years though I recently bought a Carvin BX1500 for short gigs and general jamming.
 
#148
NecroticImbecil said:
Everything.

To be fair though, I owned an SVP Pro for years and tried it with a Mesa Strategy 400,500, and power section of a Peavey Classic 400 but found it too mushy until I ran it through a solid state power amp. I sold all of that long ago, been a tube guy for years though I recently bought a Carvin BX1500 for short gigs and general jamming.
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Interesting. Reading a lot on the Jules Monique recently and the consensus is that a tube power amp is entirely unnecessary.
 
#149
Joe Ty said:
Interesting. Reading a lot on the Jules Monique recently and the consensus is that a tube power amp is entirely unnecessary.
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For Monique fans it's unnecessary, I'm sure. The Monique is a really cool unit that's got a large output transformer feeding the DI line, similar to what a REDDI does. Both will give your DI line a very realistic clean tube amp sound. But that sound isn't delivered to your amp and cab with either the Monique or REDDI. The REDDI's output to your amp is pass-through, while the Monique has a separate non-transformered output going to your power amp. Sounds great for sure, but for many, it doesn't satisfy the tube amp jones.
 
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#150
Joe Ty said:
Interesting. Reading a lot on the Jules Monique recently and the consensus is that a tube power amp is entirely unnecessary.
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I've read good things about it here. Probably never hear one. I doubt there's any one best answer. The tube power sections I didn't like with my SVP sounded killer with the Ashdown RPM-1 preamp I had. Technically a tube preamp, the lone 12AX7 in that one seemed more a gimmick than anything but it sounded good. That's all that matters.

The consensus among hybrid amp or tube pre/SS power rig users is that tube power is unneccessary. The consensus among the IEM crowd is amps of any sort are entirely unnecessary. Could take it farther and admit the consensus among keyboard players is that bassists are unnecessary. Everybody has a point, to a degree. Could be everybody's right, in their particular circumstances and from their own frame of reference. I tend to prefer tube amps, but have owned and liked all sorts of rigs, and will admit all sorts of rigs can sound great. Also terrible. My main amp weighs 100lbs, it's nice to have the Carvin for the convenience when "my" precise tone isn't as critical as quick setup & teardown, and a good solid bass tone is enough.
 
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#151
After reading everyone of these posts (again) and drawing on my 49 years of playing both tube and SS amps, they sound and feel different and they both sound good. I personally have had both good and bad luck with tube amps and nothing but good luck with SS amps. So, I have learned to love SS amps. I do have an old Sunn 200s that I plan on having put back into service in the near future just for the heck of it. It is the tube amp that I have had really good luck with.
 
#154
Much/most of what players (guitar and bass) consider as "power tube distortion" is the phase inverter being driven into breakup and THAT distortion being amplified by the power tubes. I changed pre PI master amps to post PI master volume amps, and saw this again and again.

After my SVT years (about 8 years) I sold it and built up a biamped rig, using a modded blackface Bassman and the crossover, graphic EQ and power amp in a Peavey head.

The preamp in the Bassman was modded with a midrange, mid slope control, treble shift etc, and I put in a preamp out. That ran into the an input I put in the PV. The signal went through an Aux in I put in (with an active presence) and then hit the graphic EQ followed by the crossover. The "high" from the crossover (set around 300Hz...sometimes a little higher) to the power amp of the Bassman. I added a presence to the power amp. The low end went into the 300 watt power amp of the PV.

I ran TL806, EV cabinets for the low end, and 4X8 Fender PA columns for the mids and highs...as well a a bank of tweeters.

It was glorious. I haven't matched what I got out of that rig in tone. Along with my active bass (a DIY headless Explorer, with Dimarzio J and P pickups, three band EQ and piezo saddles with dedicated preamp) and fresh roundwounds, I had the best bass tone in our area.

I am happier now with my current PF500 rig and DIY 12/6/1 and 12 sub (Not fEarful) than I was then. Simpler and more to the point.
 
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#155
Steve Dallman said:
Much/most of what players (guitar and bass) consider as "power tube distortion" is the phase inverter being driven into breakup and THAT distortion being amplified by the power tubes. I changed pre PI master amps to post PI master volume amps, and saw this again and again.

After my SVT years (about 8 years) I sold it and built up a biamped rig, using a modded blackface Bassman and the crossover, graphic EQ and power amp in a Peavey head.

The preamp in the Bassman was modded with a midrange, mid slope control, treble shift etc, and I put in a preamp out. That ran into the an input I put in the PV. The signal went through an Aux in I put in (with an active presence) and then hit the graphic EQ followed by the crossover. The "high" from the crossover (set around 300Hz...sometimes a little higher) to the power amp of the Bassman. I added a presence to the power amp. The low end went into the 300 watt power amp of the PV.

I ran TL806, EV cabinets for the low end, and 4X8 Fender PA columns for the mids and highs...as well a a bank of tweeters.

It was glorious. I haven't matched what I got out of that rig in tone. Along with my active bass (a DIY headless Explorer, with Dimarzio J and P pickups, three band EQ and piezo saddles with dedicated preamp) and fresh roundwounds, I had the best bass tone in our area.

I am happier now with my current PF500 rig and DIY 12/6/1 and 12 sub (Not fEarful) than I was then. Simpler and more to the point.
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Do you have a schematic of the changes you can share?
 
#156
I bought an Ampeg SVT Pro3 about four years ago and ran it through a SVT 212AV and loved it. About two years ago I had a chance to pickup a SVT Classic, second SVT 212AV and a SVT810E. The SVT Pro has sat collecting dust for the past two years, I've been carrying the Classic head in and out of my rehearsal studio where I keep the 212AVs and pairing it with either one of them or my fridge for gigs. The fridge lives in my garage which has worked out well. I recently tired of carrying the heavy head in and out of the house and decided to store the Classic with the 810E.

So, I hooked up the SVT 3 Pro up to the SVT 212AV again and decided that I don't like playing through it anymore. call me spoiled. It was fine until all I used was an all tube head exclusively for a couple of years, now it just sounds "meh" to me.

So, I'm saving my coin and on the lookout for another SVT Classic. I've jokingly blamed Jimmy for my past Ampeg purchases, but this one will be all my fault.

I have one for gigs, packed and ready to go. Now I need one in the rehearsal room...

I've thought about picking up a VB4 or PF-50T for my rehearsal space, but if I am patient I can probably pick up another used SVT Classic for a decent price from someone who is tired of carrying it. :D (That's how I bought my current one.) That would give me a spare at home just in case I ever needed it.

The all tube Ampegs have a different feel and response. You don't "need' it, but once you've used one for a while it is hard to play through anything else. At least that has been my experience. (Your mileage may vary.)
 
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