Tube Watts = SS Watts ??

[crazyBassClown]

Watts is watts is watts is watts. Whether if it is tubes, SS or nuclear. Watts is watts.

This is completely true. You missed the relevant part though. Loudness is not Watts.
And loudness is what people care about. Crank a tube amp past max power and it will start creating distortion that may be at a frequency that your ear is more sensitive to so it will sound louder than the max clean power even if not producing any more watts. A solid state amp wil ljust sound like garbage if you push it into serious distortion.

 

[fourstringburn]

Seems more people drinking the tube watt kool-aid from a 6550 tube!

 

[JimmyM]

I have a 50w tube head and a 350w SS head, and there's no question that the tube head sounds better, but the 350w head blows it away for clean volume, even when I run it at 250w @ 8 ohms. I also have a 200w SS head that I run at 150w @ 8 ohms usually, and it doesn't blow the tube head away for clean volume but it does get noticeably louder. Now make those differences 50w tube vs 75 or 100w SS, and there you have a contest.

 

[pht2356]

Ss watts you feel in your ears, tube watts you fell in your bones

 

[Hounddog409]

A reputable cab maker told me recently that 50W from an all tube amp head is the equivalent of about 300W from a SS head. That seemed odd to me. I'm not an EE but it seems to be that, measured at the output of the amp, Watts are Watts. Or was he perhaps meaning to refer to damping factor?

A watt is a watt. Just like an ohm is an ohm and a volt is a volt.

That would be like a carburetor HP is not equal to a fuel injected HP.

 

[Wasnex]

This is completely true. You missed the relevant part though. Loudness is not Watts.
And loudness is what people care about. Crank a tube amp past max power and it will start creating distortion that may be at a frequency that your ear is more sensitive to so it will sound louder than the max clean power even if not producing any more watts. A solid state amp wil ljust sound like garbage if you push it into serious distortion.

Generally true. But some people like the way this solid state amp sounds pushed into overdrive.

In the video you will see the player stomp on a pedal; it's a footswitch to select between the red and green channel on the amp.

GK RB series amps are also known for a light tubey OD sound when pushed. Go to 7:24 in this video.


Also, in my experience the output sections of vintage Hiwatts are not particularly great for producing overdrive. Instead they fight to make ever last possible clean watt. When they do break over, the OD is sort of harsh and uneven. You can get some nice light OD from the preamps though. If you are curious, here is a post where I did an experiment comparing a 79 Hiwatt DR103 to a 76 Matamp GT120. Trying to get tubular....again....

I have plenty of amps that get way louder than I will ever need, so I am primarily focused on tone.

 

[Mugre]

Watts is Watts. It has a definition defined by Maths.

Horsepower is horsepower. It has a definition defined by maths.

300 horsepower in a Chevy Nova FEELS a lot different that 300 horsies in a box truck.

50 tube watts FEELS different than 50 ss watts in the same cabinet. The main reason is we put up with a lot more distortion from tubes than we do from SS output devices. So here's the answer. 50 clean tube watts into your 2x10 box makes the exact same amount of noise as 50 ss clean watts into the SAME cabinet.

Mugre

 

[crazyBassClown]

So here's the answer. 50 clean tube watts into your 2x10 box makes the exact same amount of noise as 50 ss clean watts into the SAME cabinet.

Mugre

With the same EQ. Not all amps have the same inherent EQ either.

 

[bassdude51]

This is completely true. You missed the relevant part though. Loudness is not Watts.
And loudness is what people care about. Crank a tube amp past max power and it will start creating distortion that may be at a frequency that your ear is more sensitive to so it will sound louder than the max clean power even if not producing any more watts. A solid state amp wil ljust sound like garbage if you push it into serious distortion.

The most intelligent thing I have ever read explaining the differences between similar wattage SS and tube amps! Thank-you.

 

[esoxhntr]

Fire the drummer?

 

[crankypants]

It totally depends on if they are "wet" watts or "dry" watts.

 

[mikewalker]

or CHARLIE watts...

 

[okcrum]

I did a search. The search function on TB is a very blunt instrument and returned a myriad of hits about everything tubes

It's only blunt if you use it bluntly.

Try using "tube watts" including the quotes, which make an exact match necessary. Or "SS watts".

Don't search from the home page, which searches all forums. Search within a forum or thread to narrow down the search domain. Use Advanced Search.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

A 300 watt SVT with the ‘Fridge, you own the world.

An über quality 300 watts into 4Ω ss head with the ‘Fridge, not so much.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

A reputable cab maker told me recently that 50W from an all tube amp head is the equivalent of about 300W from a SS head. That seemed odd to me. I'm not an EE but it seems to be that, measured at the output of the amp, Watts are Watts. Or was he perhaps meaning to refer to damping factor?

Just to speak from experience here. My first amp was a blackface 1966 Fender Bassman amp (50-watt all tube) that I bought new in 1966. Was a great amp at the time. About 5-years later, I played in a touring nightclub group for a three year stint from 1971-1974. It worked great for the first few months. Then the keyboard player and the guitarist both bought Vox Super Beatle 125-watt RMS amps. Those were SS amps and they totally buried me. Nothing worse than being told to turn up and all you get is ugly distortion and then blown speakers.

While we were playing a very large club (Little Bo's in Lincoln, Nebraska), I visited a local music store and bought a piggy-back Standel MCIIB/SAM30B amp rated at either 200 or 250-watts RMS (also an SS amp). That was a comparatively short amp with two 15's stacked vertically and 4 round ports mounted vertically next to them. The cabinet was twice as deep as my Bassman and huge amounts of airflow came out those ports. That amp was louder than either the acoustic 360/361 or the Ampeg SVT at the time and I could now easily bury them. Never played that amp over 3 on the dial (9 o'clock) indoors because it was too loud. ALWAYS better to have more than you'll need than not enough.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

This is completely true. You missed the relevant part though. Loudness is not Watts.
And loudness is what people care about. Crank a tube amp past max power and it will start creating distortion that may be at a frequency that your ear is more sensitive to so it will sound louder than the max clean power even if not producing any more watts. A solid state amp wil ljust sound like garbage if you push it into serious distortion.

Besides watts, the sensitivity of the speakers needs to be taken into account. Sensitivity is measured as Sound Pressure Level (SPL) and the standard measurement is 1 watt at 1-meter (1W/1M). Usually though this measurement is taken while generating a 1KHz signal and we play a lot more frequencies than just 1KHz. About the only manufacturer I know if that takes measurements at many frequencies and averages them is Mesa and that's primarily because of @agedhorse here on TB, who designs them.

Nonetheless it's something to get a general idea with. For instance if you have a speaker cab that can generate 100db at 1W/1M and compare it to a cab that generates 95db with 1W/1M, that 95-watt cab will need to use about 64-watts to generate an SPL of 113db (already beyond your 50-watt amp's power) whereas the same amp would get 113db out of the 100db SPL cab by using only ~17-watts of power. That's the difference that sensitive speaker cabs will make in your sound.

So you really need to consider watts of power AND initial SPL in combination. It takes twice as much power to generate each 3db increase in SPL (in ideal circumstances. So the higher the initial SPL the louder it gets with the same amount of watts. I currently use an 800 watt Eden amp (hybrid preamp with SS power sections) into a DNS-410, which is an extremely sensitive cab. Like my Standel amp operating at much lower wattage, my Eden/DNA combination will drown out just about anything...I do not fear twin 412 Marshall stacks.

The sound however is much different than it was with my Standel. That Standel with the two 15's had a big, round, loud, sound whereas my current sound is clear, tight, articulate, and loud. Both were/are crazy loud but my current set up has far more definition in my sound than my Standel did.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

This is completely true. You missed the relevant part though. Loudness is not Watts.
And loudness is what people care about. Crank a tube amp past max power and it will start creating distortion that may be at a frequency that your ear is more sensitive to so it will sound louder than the max clean power even if not producing any more watts. A solid state amp wil ljust sound like garbage if you push it into serious distortion.

Tube amps often sound good as they go into overdrive (oversaturation of the tubes resulting in a musical distortion) because a certain amount of tube distortion sounds good. However, you push them too far and you lose definition and articulation. Listen to Hendrix 1967 recording of all along the watchtower for an example of that lack of definition and articulation.

My personal recommendation would be to get a SS amp with 500+ watts of power. 300-watts will probably work for a while for you but 500 is more versatile for larger venues. 800 watts is ideal especially in the class D amps that are available now. For instance the DNA-800 Amplifier - David Nordschow Amplification, gives you great sound with all the whistles and bells and 800 watts RMS in a 4.8-lb package with a street price of $799 new. For comparison, my 800-watt Eden WT500/800 weighs about 26-lbs. +8 to 10-lbs. more for the rack it's in. Many, if not most, of the 800-watt class D amps have a street price in that $799 range. That gives you huge flexibility in a very lightweight package.

If you get an all-tube amp, don't even consider 50-watts as enough - a loud drummer and guitarist will bury you - been there, done that, don't recommend it. 100-watts of all-tube is still a bit "iffy" for gigging medium sized venues and a 300-watt "lead sled", often weighing in at 80-lbs. or more, is not too much. With all-valve (all-tube) amps, go big or go home.

 

[Chickenwheels]

I gigged with reputable session guitarist recently who dropped the old “tube watts are louder” thing into a conversation. It’s a bit of a prevailing myth.
There are so many other factors in “louder”. Especially number of speakers being used.
The SVT can do a 2 ohm load. That’s two 810 cabs. 16 drivers.
That’s louder.

 

[Bruiser Stone]

Generally true. But some people like the way this solid state amp sounds pushed into overdrive.

In the video you will see the player stomp on a pedal; it's a footswitch to select between the red and green channel on the amp.

GK RB series amps are also known for a light tubey OD sound when pushed. Go to 7:24 in this video.


Also, in my experience the output sections of vintage Hiwatts are not particularly great for producing overdrive. Instead they fight to make ever last possible clean watt. When they do break over, the OD is sort of harsh and uneven. You can get some nice light OD from the preamps though. If you are curious, here is a post where I did an experiment comparing a 79 Hiwatt DR103 to a 76 Matamp GT120. Trying to get tubular....again....

I have plenty of amps that get way louder than I will ever need, so I am primarily focused on tone.

Since you’ve been on my radar today Wasnex, JJ Burnel back in the day played through a Hiwatt stack with pick/Rotos/Pbass for one of my favorite crunchy P tones that I’ve ever heard.


Do you think the flavors of overdriven tones are perhaps among the most subjective of preferences: one person’s
grating annoyance is another’s idea of blissful nastiness? And perhaps gear reputation hinges on how the artists who happened to use them used them?

Edit: this isn’t refuting your post, but maybe different OD’s accomplish different tasks. And it beats the tube vs. SS debate

 

[BaltBass5]

I can tell you point blank that my 100 watt all-Tube Ampeg V4-B absolutely crushes my hybrids and SS amps rated at 500-1000 watts.

Maybe it’s perception, but my band mates and most of the professional sound guys we work with also perceive the same thing.