tubes or transformer?

[Passinwind]

Tone not so much...quick results with complex calculations were their strength. And in a previous post I mentioned perishable skills...at least for me, using a slide rule is a great example!

They actually make a pretty satisfying whack against some poor miscreant's knuckles, just sayin'.

 

[micguy]

With solid state, grit and volume aren't correlated where as tubes have to be turned up to get distortion.

You have that precisely backwards. Most solid state amplifiers are VERY clean up to the point where they hit clipping. Most tube amp toplogies have significant distortion (albeit not nasty sounding) at levels far below clipping. The "clean" channel on a Fender amp is not, if you measure things, clean.

 

[byacey]

I thunk Al and I are so "old" that we both used slide rules early in our careers

My mother in law managed a store when they lived in soviet Ukraine.

A few years ago, our family went out to dinner at a local Chinese restaurant. When I went to pay for the bill, I pointed out a large abacus that they had on display behind the counter; my mother in law remarked that they used them in the store everyday for tallying purchases and accounting. That was in the mid 1980's.

I don't think they could use them for any complicated mathematics like using a slide rule, but she said it was very fast for simple calculations.

 

[Al Kraft]

My mother in law managed a store when they lived in soviet Ukraine.

A few years ago, our family went out to dinner at a local Chinese restaurant. When I went to pay for the bill, I pointed out a large abacus that they had on display behind the counter; my mother in law remarked that they used them in the store everyday for tallying purchases and accounting. That was in the mid 1980's.

I don't think they could use them for any complicated mathematics like using a slide rule, but she said it was very fast for simple calculations.

I was floored the first time I saw someone (expertly) use an abacus. It was hard to imagine a computer circuit working faster.

 

[Slevage]

Just as a matter of interest, what was your best sounding bass amp?

I use a Markbass 112 combo with a 112 cabinet for most of my gigs because it sounds very good and is easy to transport. When I play mostly rock (only at jams these days) I put an Aguilar Tone Hammer preamp in front of it, so I imagine the Tone Hammer amp would sound similar.

The best amp I currently own is a Mesa TT800, hands down. I play it through a GK 212 with a 6" mid speaker (old tweeter removed, proper crossover installed). I've owned the amp over a year, but haven't gigged it.

 

[Will_White]

You have that precisely backwards. Most solid state amplifiers are VERY clean up to the point where they hit clipping. Most tube amp toplogies have significant distortion (albeit not nasty sounding) at levels far below clipping. The "clean" channel on a Fender amp is not, if you measure things, clean.

We are in agreement, I think, my point was that solid state amps are clean throughout their useful range and if you want distortion you add it with a pedal or another module, where as tube amps get dirtier as you turn it up.

 

[Jeff Scott]

My mother in law managed a store when they lived in soviet Ukraine.

A few years ago, our family went out to dinner at a local Chinese restaurant. When I went to pay for the bill, I pointed out a large abacus that they had on display behind the counter; my mother in law remarked that they used them in the store everyday for tallying purchases and accounting. That was in the mid 1980's.

I don't think they could use them for any complicated mathematics like using a slide rule, but she said it was very fast for simple calculations.

I was floored the first time I saw someone (expertly) use an abacus. It was hard to imagine a computer circuit working faster.

These are the two my SO's father used daily in his restaurant.

For size reference on the larger one, the CD case it is sitting on is 24" wide. For the smaller one, the bobble-head dolls are 5 3/4" tall.

 

[agedhorse]

We are in agreement, I think, my point was that solid state amps are clean throughout their useful range and if you want distortion you add it with a pedal or another module, where as tube amps get dirtier as you turn it up.

Not necessarily, it depends very much on the circuits being used.

 

[Will_White]

Not necessarily, it depends very much on the circuits being used.

You keep saying that but can you give examples in typical instrument amps? A modern solid state amp that has a pleasing distortion that increases with volume that isn't trying to emulate a tube amp, or a tube amp that is very clean from 0 to maximum volume.

 

[Wasnex]

You keep saying that but can you give examples in typical instrument amps? A modern solid state amp that has a pleasing distortion that increases with volume that isn't trying to emulate a tube amp, or a tube amp that is very clean from 0 to maximum volume.

In my experience the output section of Hiwatts tends to be setup for max power. Their transition from clean to compression to OD is fairly abrupt, and not particularly musical or linear. If you want drive, you are probably better off cranking up the preamp or using a pedal. However, the preamp is fairly low gain and you may need to hit it with a boosted signal for desired results.

For context I own a 79 DR103, 76 DR201, and a Reeves 400 which is a very high quality DR405 clone.

The GK Boost circuit is described as a tube emulation. Not sure why the description would disqualify it. Tubes can be set up to run clean and solid state can be setup to produce nice compression and OD. Would you disqualify the tube circuit because it's set up to be clean?

My understanding is the old Sunn Beta Bass amps sounded pretty decent pushed into OD. AFAIK they were not intentionally designed to model tubes.

The entire GK Boost circuit is pretty much a single FET and an added level control in the middle of the signal path. The FET responds to signal level. At low signal levels the sound is clean and more dynamic. At medium signal levels the sound starts to compress. At high signal levels the sound gets snarly.

The signal level hitting the Boost FET is dependent on the input Volume control, the tone controls, and the Boost control. The Volume control is at the front end of the Preamp. This is really an input gain control IMHO. It determines the level going to the tone controls. If you hit the tone control circuits too hard, they produce a really nasty and harsh distortion. So the idea is to turn the Volume up enough to get a good signal to noise ratio, but not so much that tone circuits are pushed to clipping.

In the late model RB series, the FET drives the Woofer Master. The tweeter signal is split off after the Boost control but before the Boost FET. The idea is the tweeter signal stays clean and the Boost FET only modifies the sound going to the woofer amp.

Even with the Boost circuit set low and the Master cranked, I find the RB series to get compressed when pushed. I don't actually find this desirable.

Many people who are all-tube fans indicate a preference for running their amps right at the level were the output section is compressed. When I used tube amps, I was always frustrated because the amp sounded great at low volume, but the sound changed as I turned up.

At this point I can understand why people like the sound and feel of a pushed tube output section, but to keep the amp in the sweet spot you can't adjust the amp to meet situational volume requirements. So most of the time the rig will either be too loud, or not loud enough.

For the record I have lost count, but my amp collection numbers close to 40 amps. More than 2/3rds of my amps would be considered all-tube. About 10 are either pure solid state or hyrids with tubes in the preamp. Two are Class-D (Ampeg SVT-8Pro and Epifani UL902C), but neither are modern micro heads.

One of the tube models I own is a Sadowsky SA200. It sounds great with the tone controls all set straight up to 12:00. Guess which model can be dialed in to sound almost the same. It's the UL902C which is pure solid state and class-D with a switching power supply. Now the be clear, if you adjust the SA200's tone controls away from 12:00, you can't adjust UL902C to follow. Likewise the UL902C can be adjusted to produce a range of tones that the SA200 cannot make. But there's a little nexus where they sound and feel almost the same.

If you prefer tube amps, great. That doesn't mean that your preference counts more than anyone else. I think all of my tube amps sound great, but if I could only keep one amp, it would probably be one of my hybrids (possibly the Genz Benz GBE1200). I prefer to be able to dial in a tone I like and then adjust my volume without the sound and feel changing. I also love the sense that I have way more headroom than I could possibly ever need.

For context, I own some of the most powerful tube bass amps ever produced by large companies. The models that are considered 400W or more include Reeves 400, Trace Elliot V6, Trace Elliot V8, Ashdown 427, Mesa Strategy Eight:88.

IMHO go try a bunch of amps. Choose the amp(s) that best meet your needs. Don't worry so much about whether they are solid state or tube. And don't worry about what anyone likes or why. The only thing that matters is you like your amp and it meets your needs.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

You keep saying that but can you give examples in typical instrument amps? A modern solid state amp that has a pleasing distortion that increases with volume that isn't trying to emulate a tube amp, or a tube amp that is very clean from 0 to maximum volume.

Not to detract from your quest for brand A does this, and brand B does that, but the amp alone is not the full story.

If a company builds a solid state instrument amp as you describe here, the ability to emulate, or try to emulate a tube amp would be HUGE for the marketing department in IMHO. I couldn't think of any reason the ability to emulate a tube amp would not stand out a major spelling point.

Tube amps can be clean 0 to 10. But that "depends" on how they are driven. But how hard you hit the input of the amp is not within the control of the manufacturer and can easily take everything out of "clean" territory. This can be said for any amp of any design.

Please also note that @agedhorse responded by using "circuits" rather than amps. There are instances where the same amp model went through various circuit changes. Some of those changes were not well documented, and some where even tagged with incorrect circuit versions. The early to late 60's era Black Panel Bassman comes to mind.

Anything from power supply rectifiers to output tubes got changed a lot. You had to actually look at the components and wiring to see what you really had. And the label of "Clean" as it applies to a channel, is both comparative and subjective. How "clean" when compared to the "Dirty Channel" is comparative. And without proper lab measurements under controlled conditions, including the amount of input drive to the amp, makes it subjective.

So while I understand your frustration with not getting an answer like brand A gives you tube sound without trying to emulate tubes. Or brand B is clean from 0 - 10 by itself, the question in it's current form may be overly restrictive.

Perhaps opening up your criteria a bit might help. Instead looking for a definitive, GO - NO GO amp. Perhaps asking what amps best approach these goals. But be prepared to get many answers based on subjective opinions. That's not such a bad thing though, because when the rubber hits the road, the listening test will be the final determining factor over design philosophy, and specifications.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

My daughter, growing up in the '80's when people were not so much offended by a reference to national origins, found my old slide rule. I asked if she new what it was?

(I'll attempt to PC this up so as to offend everyone equally, and not single out any one national origin. )

She said, Is it a [insert your choice of national origin] adding machine?

I said no, and told her what it was called. Then said it was for things more complex than addition or subtraction.
Given where she was in school math at the time I showed her how to multiply two numbers. She was not impressed.

 

[Will_White]

In my experience the output section of Hiwatts tends to be setup for max power. Their transition from clean to compression to OD is fairly abrupt, and not particularly musical or linear. If you want drive, you are probably better off cranking up the preamp or using a pedal. However, the preamp is fairly low gain and you may need to hit it with a boosted signal for desired results.

For context I own a 79 DR103, 76 DR201, and a Reeves 400 which is a very high quality DR405 clone.

The GK Boost circuit is described as a tube emulation. Not sure why the description would disqualify it. Tubes can be set up to run clean and solid state can be setup to produce nice compression and OD. Would you disqualify the tube circuit because it's set up to be clean?

My understanding is the old Sunn Beta Bass amps sounded pretty decent pushed into OD. AFAIK they were not intentionally designed to model tubes.

The entire GK Boost circuit is pretty much a single FET and an added level control in the middle of the signal path. The FET responds to signal level. At low signal levels the sound is clean and more dynamic. At medium signal levels the sound starts to compress. At high signal levels the sound gets snarly.

The signal level hitting the Boost FET is dependent on the input Volume control, the tone controls, and the Boost control. The Volume control is at the front end of the Preamp. This is really an input gain control IMHO. It determines the level going to the tone controls. If you hit the tone control circuits too hard, they produce a really nasty and harsh distortion. So the idea is to turn the Volume up enough to get a good signal to noise ratio, but not so much that tone circuits are pushed to clipping.

In the late model RB series, the FET drives the Woofer Master. The tweeter signal is split off after the Boost control but before the Boost FET. The idea is the tweeter signal stays clean and the Boost FET only modifies the sound going to the woofer amp.

Even with the Boost circuit set low and the Master cranked, I find the RB series to get compressed when pushed. I don't actually find this desirable.

Many people who are all-tube fans indicate a preference for running their amps right at the level were the output section is compressed. When I used tube amps, I was always frustrated because the amp sounded great at low volume, but the sound changed as I turned up.

At this point I can understand why people like the sound and feel of a pushed tube output section, but to keep the amp in the sweet spot you can't adjust the amp to meet situational volume requirements. So most of the time the rig will either be too loud, or not loud enough.

For the record I have lost count, but my amp collection numbers close to 40 amps. More than 2/3rds of my amps would be considered all-tube. About 10 are either pure solid state or hyrids with tubes in the preamp. Two are Class-D (Ampeg SVT-8Pro and Epifani UL902C), but neither are modern micro heads.

One of the tube models I own is a Sadowsky SA200. It sounds great with the tone controls all set straight up to 12:00. Guess which model can be dialed in to sound almost the same. It's the UL902C which is pure solid state and class-D with a switching power supply. Now the be clear, if you adjust the SA200's tone controls away from 12:00, you can't adjust UL902C to follow. Likewise the UL902C can be adjusted to produce a range of tones that the SA200 cannot make. But there's a little nexus where they sound and feel almost the same.

If you prefer tube amps, great. That doesn't mean that your preference counts more than anyone else. I think all of my tube amps sound great, but if I could only keep one amp, it would probably be one of my hybrids (possibly the Genz Benz GBE1200). I prefer to be able to dial in a tone I like and then adjust my volume without the sound and feel changing. I also love the sense that I have way more headroom than I could possibly ever need.

For context, I own some of the most powerful tube bass amps ever produced by large companies. The models that are considered 400W or more include Reeves 400, Trace Elliot V6, Trace Elliot V8, Ashdown 427, Mesa Strategy Eight:88.

IMHO go try a bunch of amps. Choose the amp(s) that best meet your needs. Don't worry so much about whether they are solid state or tube. And don't worry about what anyone likes or why. The only thing that matters is you like your amp and it meets your needs.

Not to detract from your quest for brand A does this, and brand B does that, but the amp alone is not the full story.

If a company builds a solid state instrument amp as you describe here, the ability to emulate, or try to emulate a tube amp would be HUGE for the marketing department in IMHO. I couldn't think of any reason the ability to emulate a tube amp would not stand out a major spelling point.

Tube amps can be clean 0 to 10. But that "depends" on how they are driven. But how hard you hit the input of the amp is not within the control of the manufacturer and can easily take everything out of "clean" territory. This can be said for any amp of any design.

Please also note that @agedhorse responded by using "circuits" rather than amps. There are instances where the same amp model went through various circuit changes. Some of those changes were not well documented, and some where even tagged with incorrect circuit versions. The early to late 60's era Black Panel Bassman comes to mind.

Anything from power supply rectifiers to output tubes got changed a lot. You had to actually look at the components and wiring to see what you really had. And the label of "Clean" as it applies to a channel, is both comparative and subjective. How "clean" when compared to the "Dirty Channel" is comparative. And without proper lab measurements under controlled conditions, including the amount of input drive to the amp, makes it subjective.

So while I understand your frustration with not getting an answer like brand A gives you tube sound without trying to emulate tubes. Or brand B is clean from 0 - 10 by itself, the question in it's current form may be overly restrictive.

Perhaps opening up your criteria a bit might help. Instead looking for a definitive, GO - NO GO amp. Perhaps asking what amps best approach these goals. But be prepared to get many answers based on subjective opinions. That's not such a bad thing though, because when the rubber hits the road, the listening test will be the final determining factor over design philosophy, and specifications.

I realize my question, specifically the part about solid state amps, was overly restrictive, a better way to word it might be to provide an example of a solid state amp that doesn't use a separate circuit to provide overdrive. Keep in mind I'm not saying that tubes can't be clean, the world of tube HiFi makes that crystal clear, but that someone might choose an amp with nearly a KW of class D hybrid power over a 200 watt tube amp because in order to get the tone they want out of the 200 watt amp means using most of those 200 watts vs a hybrid that maintains largely the same tone at 1 watt as it does at 800.

 

[agedhorse]

You keep saying that but can you give examples in typical instrument amps? A modern solid state amp that has a pleasing distortion that increases with volume that isn't trying to emulate a tube amp, or a tube amp that is very clean from 0 to maximum volume.

Sure, the D-800/800+ has an increasing distortion that's (in player's opinion) pleasing, and the Strategy/Prodigy tube bass amps that can be quite clean (depending on voicing chosen and MV position) until driven into overdrive.

Those are a few easy examples, others that are known to overdrive in a desirable way include the GK 400 and 800RB, Ampeg PF series. Other potentially clean (if that's desired) tube amps include the original SVTs, many HiWatt amps, and even the Sadowsky SA-200.

Then there are the hybrids, which all use a variety of approaches of circuits and emulation techniques. I think @Wasnex has summed it up well also.

 

[Wasnex]

I realize my question, specifically the part about solid state amps, was overly restrictive, a better way to word it might be to provide an example of a solid state amp that doesn't use a separate circuit to provide overdrive. Keep in mind I'm not saying that tubes can't be clean, the world of tube HiFi makes that crystal clear, but that someone might choose an amp with nearly a KW of class D hybrid power over a 200 watt tube amp because in order to get the tone they want out of the 200 watt amp means using most of those 200 watts vs a hybrid that maintains largely the same tone at 1 watt as it does at 800.

The GK boost circuit in the RB series is in the signal path 100% of the time; it's not a seperate circuit. If you turn the Boost control down, it attenuates the signal 100%

Using a separate circuit for OD is by no means a solid state only approach. My Trace Elliot V8 is essentially a channel switching design, with a clean section and an OD section. In regular mode it uses RV1 to set the preamp gain. In OD mode, RV1 is switched out of the circuit, and it adds RV2; V2A and V2B; and RV3. RV2 is the new gain control, V2A and V2B are the OD circuit, and RV3 is used to set the output level of the OD circuit. The OD circuit is voiced different than the clean circuit, even when the gain is dialed down.

Again...don't worry so much about the circuit architecture. Try different amps to find the one that sounds right to you.


I assure you that my tube amps don't all sound the same. An Ampeg SVT, Orange AD200, and Hiwatt DR201 can't cover the same sonic territory, so I don't think it reasonable to expect a solid-state amp to sound exactly like one of these amps.

If the only amp that works for you is a specific tube amp, then either accept it, or make whatever compromise is necessary to meet your overall objectives.

 

[agedhorse]

I realize my question, specifically the part about solid state amps, was overly restrictive, a better way to word it might be to provide an example of a solid state amp that doesn't use a separate circuit to provide overdrive. Keep in mind I'm not saying that tubes can't be clean, the world of tube HiFi makes that crystal clear, but that someone might choose an amp with nearly a KW of class D hybrid power over a 200 watt tube amp because in order to get the tone they want out of the 200 watt amp means using most of those 200 watts vs a hybrid that maintains largely the same tone at 1 watt as it does at 800.

Often a player will choose a higher powered solid state amp because they are looking to maintain the cleaner tone at volumes higher than what are practical with a tube amp without distortion.

Many solid state and hybrid amps do allow for progressive over-driven response IF that's what the player is looking for, this is part of the basic architecture of some designs.

 

[agedhorse]

Using a separate circuit for OD is by no means a solid state only approach. My Trace Elliot V8 is essentially a channel switching design, with a clean section and an OD section. In regular mode it uses RV1 to set the preamp gain. In OD mode, RV1 is switched out of the circuit, and it adds RV2; V2A and V2B; and RV3. RV2 is the new gain control, V2A and V2B are the OD circuit, and RV3 is used to set the output level of the OD circuit. The OD circuits sound different than the clean circuit, even when the gain is dialed down.

Again...don't worry so much about the circuit architecture. Try different amps to find the one that sounds right to you.


I assure you that my tube amps don't all sound the same. An Ampeg SVT, Orange AD200, and Hiwatt DR201 can't cover the same sonic territory, so I don't think it reasonable to expect a solid-state amp to sound exactly like one of these amps.

If the only amp that works for you is a specific tube amp, then either accept it, or make whatever compromise is necessary to meet your overall objectives.

The Titan and Big Block amps also have overdrive that's fundamental to the amp's architecture depending on how the internal gain stages are selected.

 

[Will_White]

Ok, let's re-center this. The post I originally responded to was this.

Wait a minute, I’m confused…a 150 watt tube amp was too loud, but now you have a 800 watt(well, 400 into 8 ohms) transistor amp?

How would you explain this. Are tube watts louder or might it be because solid state amp tone in general is more consistent from low to high volume.

 

[Wasnex]

How would you explain this. Are tube watts louder or might it be because solid state amp tone in general is more consistent from low to high volume.

IMHO it's often a matter of faith, and people believe what that want to believe. I don't really see much point in arguing with someone who swears his SVT is louder than an 800W solid state amp, because they have faith that it's true. But for the record, I own a 69 SVT and an 87 SVT, and this is not consistent with my experience.

I have tube amps that range from 12.5W to 465W. I have solid state amps that range from 360W to 2,500W. If I lined them up in order from lowest perceived volume to highest, they would fall in pretty much along their power ratings.

There are a few exceptions. Some of my 30W Ashdowns seem slightly louder than my 50W Ampeg. My 200W Matchless compares better with my 100W tube heads than my other 200W tube heads.

I have seen reports that a healthy blue line SVT running 6146 tubes can make about 450W clean. I have also seen reports that SVTs running 6550s often make about 240W at 5% distortion and around 350W at 10%. Per the original spec the vintage SVTs are supposed to make 300W at 3%. The most recent spec is 300W at 5%.

The 69 SVT is definitely louder than the 87. I have not done an AB test, but my impression is the 69 would compare pretty favorably to my 400+ watt tube amps. IMHO, my 360W and 380W GKs are louder than the 87. Haven't compared them to the 69 since I got it back to full power. The 69 might prevail against the GKs, but I don't think it would take down my 600W Mesa M9.

 

[Snert]

As a (very) general rule (and from a bass perspective), a tube amp with big heavy transformers tends to produce good tone.

Only in some people's opinion. Certainly NOT mine.

I thunk Al and I are so "old" that we both used slide rules early in our careers

I'm not quite that old, but in my recent move one of my HP RPN calcs had the screen damaged. I have another and apps on my phone and PC that emulate a variety of HP calcs, but this was my first and has my name engraved in the inset block on the rear. I almost shed nerd tears, but I'll find a broken one and repair it.

In addition to being a bass player, I inhabit the world of high-end audio. I am a "solid state" guy there (Naim Audio gear), but plenty of other inhabitants insist "tubes are best".

There is your problem. I never bought into the whole Teifenbrun / Vereker world view, even after owning a lot of both of their gear in the early days. The 'high end' audio world is full if so much crap, it would take years to cover it all.

I have a hifi amp design being retailed at the moment by another company. It's my best design, but the amount of crap being used to sell it is embarrassing.

The industry hasn’t used capacitor coupled output power amps for roughly 50 years, so this doesn’t even come into play.

I don't recall a hifi or pro amp that I've designed or worked on that's cap coupled anywhere, except as a blocker at the input, and not then always. If a DC servo loop is used instead, then a cap is used.

Sorry, AH, not telling you how to such eggs, just using your comment to reply.

Keep in mind I'm not saying that tubes can't be clean, the world of tube HiFi makes that crystal clear

Not even close. Show me a clean SET as the most basic example; even if you were to be able to show the topology is clean, it will go to rubbish when you gap the OPT and destroy the primary inductance. Now move on to other brands like ARC which should be hybrid for the amount of SS either in the signal path, or as ancillary circuitry that would not allow the performance if it wasn't there.

Invalid Link Removed
but it sounds so good.