tubes or transformer?

[Al Kraft]

HF can be very effective.

...remarkably effective with some recent innovative things that have been done with antenna and coupler technology by some of my colleagues on a recent AFRL project. Dr. Jim Breakall who works with us at Sabre Systems and is a distinguished professor at Penn State led the work...I would imagine many folks in Ham radio know his name.

 

[definenredefine]

My concern is that certain areas of tech are starting to reach a tipping point where our dependence is critical/essential (i.e. we have lost the ability to do things ourselves or there is no viable back-up) just to execute simple daily tasks.

I was thinking about this recently. I'm 40, so old enough to have used the library, encyclopedias, etc to write reports for school. But, for pharmacy school, pubmed on the interwebs was my friend. It still is, in a professional capacity, the easiest way for me to search the medical literature. I'm pretty good at navigating, but these days I would have a harder time without google maps and/or GPS. In general, I can't imagine not using the internet to find information. It's the first place I go! But I'm old enough to remember not having that option. It's really amazing how quickly that changed, and a little scary to think about how dependent I am as a result.

As far as the internet of things, I just...don't get it. I don't need internet-enabled appliances. I have simply safe for home cameras, but I don't have an account with them because I don't want them to violate my 4th amendment rights on behalf of the police. I have electronic locks but they're not "smart," ie no bluetooth or phone connectivity. No alexa or google home in my house, either.

It's not that I'm a luddite, but I just don't see enough benefit to offset the risk of malicious actors - non-state, state, or otherwise.

 

[Zenbassie]

Confusing. Does an audio amplifier exist that does not use a transformer?

I think that the word "transformer" here is intended to mean "output transformer", which (in general) only tube amps have. That said, I believe Marshall made a transistor amp with an output transformer back in the day.

 

[Zenbassie]

There are so many ways to use both tubes and transformers that any conclusions drawn make no sense. It’s all in the intent of the design and how well the design is executed.

I don't have any particular technical expertise in this field, but I am old, and have owned a lot of amps, and heard heaps more. As a (very) general rule (and from a bass perspective), a tube amp with big heavy transformers tends to produce good tone.

 

[agedhorse]

I don't have any particular technical expertise in this field, but I am old, and have owned a lot of amps, and heard heaps more. As a (very) general rule (and from a bass perspective), a tube amp with big heavy transformers tends to produce good tone.

Then how come there are so few tube amps (even at the high end) being sold compared with class D amps (for bass guitar)?

In pro audio, there are NO tube amps being sold and virtually every pro audio power amp these days are class D (or a variant of class D). This is entirely unrelated to cost as well, it doesn't matter in the touring pro audio world.

IF tube amps were that superior for bass (and I have designed quite a few tube amps, and I work for a company that IS a tube guitar amp company), how come the number of tube amp offerings is so small?

 

[agedhorse]

I was thinking about this recently. I'm 40, so old enough to have used the library, encyclopedias, etc to write reports for school. But, for pharmacy school, pubmed on the interwebs was my friend. It still is, in a professional capacity, the easiest way for me to search the medical literature. I'm pretty good at navigating, but these days I would have a harder time without google maps and/or GPS. In general, I can't imagine not using the internet to find information. It's the first place I go! But I'm old enough to remember not having that option. It's really amazing how quickly that changed, and a little scary to think about how dependent I am as a result.

As far as the internet of things, I just...don't get it. I don't need internet-enabled appliances. I have simply safe for home cameras, but I don't have an account with them because I don't want them to violate my 4th amendment rights on behalf of the police. I have electronic locks but they're not "smart," ie no bluetooth or phone connectivity. No alexa or google home in my house, either.

It's not that I'm a luddite, but I just don't see enough benefit to offset the risk of malicious actors - non-state, state, or otherwise.

I thunk Al and I are so "old" that we both used slide rules early in our careers

 

[Zenbassie]

IF tube amps were that superior for bass (and I have designed quite a few tube amps, and I work for a company that IS a tube guitar amp company), how come the number of tube amp offerings is so small?

Easy answer - a) tube amps are heavy, and b) tube amps are expensive.

I am by any estimation a "tube amp guy" (in the instrument amp field), and own a Fender 400 PS and a 1970s Hiwatt 200. These are my best sounding amps, but I seldom use them, due to the "weight" factor. The fact is that when I gig, my Rabe-era SWRs do the work 99% of the time.

I haven't seen guitarists rushing to get rid of their tube amps though.

In addition to being a bass player, I inhabit the world of high-end audio. I am a "solid state" guy there (Naim Audio gear), but plenty of other inhabitants insist "tubes are best".

 

[Zenbassie]

I thunk Al and I are so "old" that we both used slide rules early in our careers

Did they produce good tone?

 

[agedhorse]

Easy answer - a) tube amps are heavy, and b) tube amps are expensive.

I am by any estimation a "tube amp guy" (in the instrument amp field), and own a Fender 400 PS and a 1970s Hiwatt 200. These are my best sounding amps, but I seldom use them, due to the "weight" factor. The fact is that when I gig, my Rabe-era SWRs do the work 99% of the time.

I haven't seen guitarists rushing to get rid of their tube amps though.

In addition to being a bass player, I inhabit the world of high-end audio. I am a "solid state" guy there (Naim Audio gear), but plenty of other inhabitants insist "tubes are best".

Some guitarists are in fact moving away from tubes in some circles. AxeFX, Kemper, Helic and the new Fender Tonemaster amps are examples of some VERY successful solid state amps (and class D at that!)

 

[G-Point]

We all know about warm and more musical saturation coming from tubes and transformers. But there are some more factors. Vacuum tubes have constant input impedance (capacitance and resistance), and are not providing linear distortion and modulation, it is very important with high and very high (for example - piezo) impedance signal sources. The transformer's inductance filters/reduces EMI/RFI noise and distortion. The transformer's windings are playing different - inductance games, in comparison with capacitor games in solid-state circuit outputs.

 

[Zenbassie]

Some guitarists are in fact moving away from tubes in some circles. AxeFX, Kemper, Helic and the new Fender Tonemaster amps are examples of some VERY successful solid state amps (and class D at that!)

I don't actually know any of those guys myself, but I don't doubt you. After all, there are people who listen to music through Spotify.

 

[Jeff Scott]

I was a tube snob until I got a WD800.

Does it come in a blue spray can?

 

[Slevage]

Easy answer - a) tube amps are heavy, and b) tube amps are expensive.

I am by any estimation a "tube amp guy" (in the instrument amp field), and own a Fender 400 PS and a 1970s Hiwatt 200. These are my best sounding amps, but I seldom use them, due to the "weight" factor. The fact is that when I gig, my Rabe-era SWRs do the work 99% of the time.

I haven't seen guitarists rushing to get rid of their tube amps though.

In addition to being a bass player, I inhabit the world of high-end audio. I am a "solid state" guy there (Naim Audio gear), but plenty of other inhabitants insist "tubes are best".

"Best sounding" is in the ears of the listener.

My first decent amp was a Fender Bassman (purchased new), next was a Sunn Model T (purchased new). Both are gone, both were not my best sounding amp. I started playing over 50 years ago.

 

[Zenbassie]

"Best sounding" is in the ears of the listener.

I agree it's subjective, but the best sounding bass amps I have heard (at least for the styles I like to play) are all tube amps.

 

[Zenbassie]

both were not my best sounding amp.

Just as a matter of interest, what was your best sounding bass amp?

 

[_Some Dude]

Some guitarists are in fact moving away from tubes in some circles. AxeFX, Kemper, Helic and the new Fender Tonemaster amps are examples of some VERY successful solid state amps (and class D at that!)

I almost see that as generational. In broad strokes, sort of a progression from the Fender/Vox era through Plexi, JCM800, Mk IIC+, JCM900\2555, Dual Rectifier, 5150, a period of quasi-boutique high gain, then AxeFX. Players are always looking for new sounds to push the envelope, that Recto/5150 era lasted a fairly long time, and the Axe gave them something new to work with.

Conversely, younger artists that are more retro inspired also tend to be more retro in terms of their gear selection. In my scene I saw a lot of desire for tube amps within that younger market.

There’s also the idea that the whole AxeFX/Superior Drummer thing is getting played out, which is ironic in that devices that can be made to sound like anything are used (mis-used?) to make everyone sound the same. Either way, I’m curious if it’ll lead to a backlash like the anti-Recto ‘00s or anti-Marshall ‘90s periods? I’m getting too old/too far removed to follow the trends, but it seems like there’s a move towards real amps for purely marketing reasons (hard to sell signature gear when you’re known for getting your sound from inside the box).

There’s also the crowd that’s switched to modelling for practical rather than creative reasons, but they’re less interesting to me, even though they probably represent a larger market segment.

 

[Al Kraft]

I was thinking about this recently. I'm 40, so old enough to have used the library, encyclopedias, etc to write reports for school. But, for pharmacy school, pubmed on the interwebs was my friend. It still is, in a professional capacity, the easiest way for me to search the medical literature. I'm pretty good at navigating, but these days I would have a harder time without google maps and/or GPS. In general, I can't imagine not using the internet to find information. It's the first place I go! But I'm old enough to remember not having that option. It's really amazing how quickly that changed, and a little scary to think about how dependent I am as a result.

As far as the internet of things, I just...don't get it. I don't need internet-enabled appliances. I have simply safe for home cameras, but I don't have an account with them because I don't want them to violate my 4th amendment rights on behalf of the police. I have electronic locks but they're not "smart," ie no bluetooth or phone connectivity. No alexa or google home in my house, either.

It's not that I'm a luddite, but I just don't see enough benefit to offset the risk of malicious actors - non-state, state, or otherwise.

You are looking at this from a risk/reward (or benefit) perspective and IME that is a rare thing these days. There are two thoughts that I feel need more time and attention these days...and they are ones you touched on.

First, just because we can do something doesn't mean we should or that it's a good idea. The second is a little more esoteric and is rooted in a piece of a psychological principle that starts with "all change involves loss". Moving to something new most always means leaving something old behind. Unfortunately some of our "old skills" (a few of which you mentioned) are perishable over time. This can create a total dependence on the new tech unless we stay in practice/keep ourselves and the older resources current.

 

[Al Kraft]

I thunk Al and I are so "old" that we both used slide rules early in our careers

Still have my K&E...but never wore it in a belt holster...

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I still also have a small circular slide rule I could fit in my coat/jacket pocket.

 

[agedhorse]

We all know about warm and more musical saturation coming from tubes and transformers. But there are some more factors. Vacuum tubes have constant input impedance (capacitance and resistance), and are not providing linear distortion and modulation, it is very important with high and very high (for example - piezo) impedance signal sources. The transformer's inductance filters/reduces EMI/RFI noise and distortion. The transformer's windings are playing different - inductance games, in comparison with capacitor games in solid-state circuit outputs.

Actually, transformer saturation at low frequencies (say for bass guitar) is anything but musical, in fact it’s quite nasty sounding.

The input impedance of a circuit is not defined purely by the device, nor are tubes necessary higher or more linear either. As an example, many op-amp and jfet circuits have higher and more linear input impedances than tube circuits.

Regarding output circuits and coupling, the transformer’s reactance of a tube power amp does interact with the load which degrades linearity, but is also reduces the damping factor (increases the output impedance) both directly (as a result of core/copper losses) and indirectly (as a result of the lower global feedback due to stability concerns). Since most linear solid state power amp designs use direct coupling at audio frequencies, the low (and high) frequency linearity does not limit the application of global feedback to the same extent. In class D output stages, there is an inductor present (looks like the primary winding of a transformer) which limits the a point of post inductor feedback, but the open loop output impedance starts out much lower than a tube amp anyway.

The industry hasn’t used capacitor coupled output power amps for roughly 50 years, so this doesn’t even come into play.

You have made a lot of assumptions that are simply not true.

 

[Al Kraft]

Did they produce good tone?

Tone not so much...quick results with complex calculations were their strength. And in a previous post I mentioned perishable skills...at least for me, using a slide rule is a great example!