• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Twisted pegbox/scroll?

Joshua Phelps

Joshua Phelps

Feb 22, 2011
199
0
Memphis
#1
I Removed my fingerboard in anticipation of receiving my new one to glue on & once I removed my old One I noticed when you look at the scroll/pegbox from the back of the bass it looks twisted. I layed the old board on it & it seems to lay flat still without any pressure. Is this normal ?
 
#2
Am I understanding correctly that your complaint is that the pegbox itself seems to be rotated out of plane with the neck area? If so, I have seen this happen on new instruments as I made them. Started off with a squared-off, straight billet and after I carved the pegbox it was still straight-- but by the time the instrument was set up, I could see a rotation to one side. Very frustrating, but, as I understand it, it is simply residual stresses in the wood being relaxed by your carving, and the wood has established a new resting state.

Matthew Tucker (if I remember correctly) says he knows a luthier who carves the pegboxes and scrolls months in advance, leaving lots of extra in the handle area. Then, after the wood stabilizes, he carves the rest of the neck to match the (now rotated) scroll. Seems a lot of trouble, but it is the only way I know to completely avoid it.

It is especially noticeable on a bass, but I had it happen recently on a viola, too.
 
#4
I own a CCB a Cecilio CDB-100, I thought mine was carved that way, with the pegbox slightly turned toward the treble side. The fingerboard, etc. is perfect, just the pegbox, so I suppose it could have just been carved that way, a little too much shaved off that side, but reading this post, maybe not. I'd never seen anything posted about this before. In the words of Arte Johnson, very interesting
 
#7
I also wanted to add, it would appear a very well known bass building company (I'm not saying names) doesn't take pictures where you can see the back of the bass from top of the scroll to the lower bout (the whole back of the bass in one picture). I'm guessing this scroll deal is the reason they don't.
 
#8
Possibly...more likely it is simply that when you back off enough to see the whole bass at one shot, you can see hardly any detail. We do the same for violins and violas, as a matter of course. It allows people to see the detail they want.

On my website there is one photo of the whole back of a bass... and you can see very little detail--including the fact that the pegbox has a slight twist. I have quit worrying about it. If I remember, I may carve the pegbox early, on my next bass, and let it sit a few months. (Probably I will forget...)
 
#9
1st bass, do you know the history of your wood, such as was it kiln dried or air dried, and how long it was aged? I don't want to come off as accusing you of using bad wood, I'm not, I'm genuinely curious. I have seen twisted pegboxes on a lot of old violins where it was so bad that it looked like the thing was trying to look over its shoulder. I have always thought that it was because people used to actually soak the wood in water before carving the scroll to make it easier, or perhaps they were using green wood. I had always thought that properly seasoned wood would not do that kind of thing, but after reading this thread I'm wondering if I should rethink that.
 
#10
Joshua Phelps said:
I also wanted to add, it would appear a very well known bass building company (I'm not saying names) doesn't take pictures where you can see the back of the bass from top of the scroll to the lower bout (the whole back of the bass in one picture). I'm guessing this scroll deal is the reason they don't.
Click to expand...

I think it's something that many "well known" companies don't provide. I can hardly recall seeing such pics from any maker! I think the reason is more in line with 1st Bass's thinking as opposed to makers trying to hide something.
 
#11
uprightben said:
1st bass, do you know the history of your wood, such as was it kiln dried or air dried, and how long it was aged? I don't want to come off as accusing you of using bad wood, I'm not, I'm genuinely curious. I have seen twisted pegboxes on a lot of old violins where it was so bad that it looked like the thing was trying to look over its shoulder. I have always thought that it was because people used to actually soak the wood in water before carving the scroll to make it easier, or perhaps they were using green wood. I had always thought that properly seasoned wood would not do that kind of thing, but after reading this thread I'm wondering if I should rethink that.
Click to expand...

The wood came from John Tepper, of Tepper Tonewoods, in Shady Cove, Oregon. He air dries his wood, and some of it is stuff his father cut, before him...relatively old. The stuff I had was not as old as that, but definitely not green. It is a fairly dry area, about 60 miles north of Medford, and his wood is stored in large wooden barns, in most cases. He does have a 40' semi-trailer that he uses as a warehouse overflow, but nothing is exposed to weather, and he is a very experienced (2nd generation) tonewood provider.

Ever rip a board from end to end, and have the two sides "walk" in different directions? (pinching the saw, or spreading away from it?) I believe that is a similar phenomenon. I definitely didn't soak my scroll. I have heard of that but have never tried such a thing... sounds like a good way to start a a crack.
 
#12
A twisted neck occurs as a result of using unseasoned wood, reaction wood or wood cut off the quarter. Reaction wood is wood that was cut from a part of the tree that either grew twisted, or leaning. The fibers try to straighten out over time, causing twisting or warping. Raw neck blocks need to be "tortured" in a harsh environment (like an attic), and air-dried for at least 5-6 years. (Kiln drying essentially destroys neck blocks because they are so thick that the outsides dry much faster than the insides, causing case hardening and warping.) When trued-up, any twisting or warping is milled out. Then the piece must acclimate before being carved into a neck. When treated in this manner, twisted necks are an extreme rarity. Of course the most important part of the process is selecting appropriate wood.
 
#13
Chet and Arnold, thank you for the information, I had not heard of "torturing" the wood before. I have some red maple and black walnut that I have processed into neck and back blanks from green logs this summer and are currently in my wood shed drying, and any tip in how to properly season them is much appreciated.

Chet, I hope you don't think I was criticizing your work, I checked out your website and found it to be very fine.
 
#14
leave lots of overlength, put it on sticks for airflow,a nearby sawmill may be a source for anchorseal to treat the ends,you can get staybright from them as well if you suspect there will be any mold problems. most important is to make sure everything is square when stacked or you can build tension in the wood that otherwise would be fine. try to find a place safe from extreme temp. shifts.
 
#15
Good advice, Forester. But call me crazy, I want my wood to experience drastic changes in temperature and humidity in its early years. If a piece goes to hell, so be it. It probably would have ended up doing the same thing as an instrument later on. I find that as long as I seal the ends, I rarely lose wood to extreme warping or checking.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back