Two new, identical Subway 1x15 cabs sound different

[StereoPlayer]

I tried a 1X15 cab, exactly once. Hated it.

Went out, and bought an SVT810. Never looked back.

I tried a SVT810 cab, exactly once. Hated it. Went out, and bought a 1X15. Never looked back.

 

[Jeff Scott]

I tried a SVT810 cab, exactly once. Hated it. Went out, and bought a 1X15 cab. Never looked back.

Here's the one and only Ampeg 810 cabinet I ever used. I was wearing earplugs so I have no idea how it really sounded on stage.

 

[agedhorse]

I'm not sure how security plays into this. For the OP it could tell them whether there is a significant response difference or not. What's significant? 2 or 3 db? These tools are used regularly for tuning audio systems in cars, homes, studios, etc. They provide useful data if used in a sensible way and using a basic scientific testing approach. You can easily compare response curves to see the difference. Of course having the knowledge to determine what is wrong or needs to be changed is another thing. Its like getting a code on your OBD2 reader and having the knowledge to know what part to change. Diagnosing and dealing with small differences (can you hear these?) might well require higher end skills. I don't see the downside if the user is interested in this work.

Why? Because more often than not the measurement error indoors due to boundary conditions is greater than what you are trying to measure. Removing the boundary conditions eliminates the most significant source of error.

I spent 40 years working with a variety of these measurement tools, repeatability is VERY difficult. The other professionals here will almost certainly agree, because we all share the same measurement repeatability issues in our respective day jobs.

The tools are ONLY as good as the experience of the person behind it. If the person can't recognize the impact of boundary conditions on repeatability, it's all downhill from there. It's why (real) engineers go to school to learn about the tolerances , plus the difference between precision and accuracy.

What I am trying to do is get a comparison withOUT the external factors to verify that there is in fact a problem. Screwing around inside isn't going to get that information with any confidence.

 

[matti777]

Why? Because more often than not the measurement error indoors due to boundary conditions is greater than what you are trying to measure. Removing the boundary conditions eliminates the most significant source of error....

Its great you are trying to help but engineers usually want data except you don't. If you are searching for response differences of a small magnitude I would agree but would the human ear recognize those differences anyway?

 

[agedhorse]

Its great you are trying to help but engineers usually want data except you don't. If you are searching for response differences of a small magnitude I would agree but would the human ear recognize those differences anyway?

I want GOOD data. Bad data is worse than useless and GOOD engineers recognize this immediately. Making assumptions based on bad data is a colossal waste of everybody's time, including the OP's.

The difference is very small, well within the limits of room interactions, so the next step is to eliminate the room interactions to be sure we are in fact hearing a difference in the speakers and NOT due to the room.

 

[eottjake]

I want GOOD data. Bad data is worse than useless and GOOD engineers recognize this immediately. Making assumptions based on bad data is a colossal waste of everybody's time, including the OP's.

The difference is very small, well within the limits of room interactions, so the next step is to eliminate the room interactions to be sure we are in fact hearing a difference in the speakers and NOT due to the room.

What @agedhorse is doing with OP is just good troubleshooting. There are myriad other ways to relate this, but for me it's the IT world: I don't want to get lost in pages and pages of useless log files even though they may look interesting. If the issue is just caused by someone fatfingering their password, no amount of log searching is going to matter.
"OH NO, THIS SERVICE FAILED TO START LAST WEEKEND!" 4 hours later you find out that that was uninstalled last weekend and nobody cares.


*bad password here = room influence

 

[Al Kraft]

There are some old expressions in engineering I use to remind myself that thinking through things carefully in the context of the problem you are intending to solve is essential if you plan to be successful. The first one is that results will vary greatly if you measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, and then cut with an axe. There are many lessons in that one the longer you think about it.

The second is that if you need to know something with a high degree of fidelity to sort out a problem, it's just as important to use the appropriate, calibrated tools/instruments for getting your data as it is to be sure you are actually measuring what you intended to and not something you changed in the act of measuring or the result of phenomena that you haven't accounted for. In other words, noise in your measurement process or the environment can completely obscure the information you were trying to discover.

 

[matti777]

If you don't recommend using acoustical tools that's your prerogative. Many people use these tools with good results. Is it the right tool for the job? It depends on whether we are picking the fly crap out of the pepper or there is a large discrepancy in the acoustical response.

 

[agedhorse]

Of course Al, when you make a decision based on bad data (like you mention), very bad things can happen and the people you are tasked with protecting could get badly injured or killed.

When designing things related to life safety, as an engineer (like you) I am presumed to be a professional and fully qualified for the work being done. If it goes wrong, it becomes anything from a very bad day to career ending.

 

[agedhorse]

If you don't recommend using acoustical tools that's your prerogative. Many people use these tools with good results. Is it the right tool for the job? It depends on whether we are picking the fly crap out of the pepper or there is a large discrepancy in the acoustical response.

The discrepancy is small, well within the realm of the room itself.

I do this every day, it’s my profession and my living. I also see the results of DIY measurements, where the results are simply impossible even though the DYI’er is convinced that they have attained measurement perfection. Do you have any idea how much time is wasted going down the path of fool’s folly only to discover that they weren’t measuring what they thought they were and ended up with bad data that led everybody astray.

I find that folks with no skin in the game are the most vocal and most confident about pointing people down an unproductive path. My time is way too valuable to do this, which is why testing outside is pretty much conclusive one way or another. It’s really that simple.

 

[eottjake]

@op any updates here?

 

[Geri O]

If you don't recommend using acoustical tools that's your prerogative. Many people use these tools with good results. Is it the right tool for the job? It depends on whether we are picking the fly crap out of the pepper or there is a large discrepancy in the acoustical response.

I did pro audio for many years and kesfning to make credible audio measurements was part of keeping my job, though my situation wasn’t as involved as the measurements made in the design and manufacturing process.

I’m seeing similarities in this conversation to my experiences with the measuring platforms that were optimized for live sound operators (meaning “simplified from serious measurement systems used by audio manufacturers when designing speakers”). I’m talking Smaart, Spectrafoo, Systune, and a few others. These programs were sold with strong recommendations for taking their respective training courses in order to learn how to measure, what to measure, and probably most importantly, how to interpret what the results of those measurements mean as well as what actions to take based on those results. I’m talking over 20 years ago, but one class I took had a two-hour section on measuring PA in large indoor arenas. The first words out of the instructor’s mouth was “this is gonna suck”…

You could tell the touring sound guys that ran out and bought a measurement program, but didn’t get proper training on using it. They stuck a measurement mic up in the air, blast the arena with ear-splitting pink noise, then proceed to show me his “analyzer” results (usually a horrible squiggly line all over the place) and tell me how screwed up my PA was. My response was always “Hold my coffee and watch this”. I would simply reposition his measurement mic (usually in a ground plane measurement style), occasionally tweak his computer settings, and re-measure. Every time, his display showed a fairly reasonable result where I had already tweaked the response and aligned subs-to-mains in my processor before this guy showed up. To the touring guys’ credit, training became more accessible and I saw fewer and fewer folks doing this as time went on.
The point of this is to reinforce that making audio measurements is a fine art. There’s a process to adhere to if you want reliable and repeatable results, large-scale or small. Period.

And this is harsh, but when car audio measurements come up, my bull-poop-o-meter goes off and I stop listening to that person then and there.

 

[Redbrangus]

And this is harsh, but when car audio measurements come up, my bull-sh!t-o-meter goes off and I stop listening to that person then and there.

Well, yeah... a little harsh, but generally speaking, I agree with the sentiment. The proliferation of RTA-type phone apps hasn't made things any better either -- now EVERYONE can generate and manipulate bad data.

 

[Geri O]

Well, yeah... a little harsh, but generally speaking, I agree with the sentiment. The proliferation of RTA-type phone apps hasn't made things any better either -- now EVERYONE can generate and manipulate bad data.

Gosh, ain’t that the truth!

My current (playing) gig has the star of the show using his iPhone to find frequencies he doesn’t like or try to bite him. I was a little horrified the first time I saw this, but he makes it work for him and no harm is done as far as I can tell…

 

[matti777]

...And this is harsh, but when car audio measurements come up, my bull-poop-o-meter goes off and I stop listening to that person then and there.

Tech snobbery at its best...a little threatened by technology?

 

[Geri O]

Tech snobbery at its best...a little threatened by technology?

Insult what you don’t understand. Now we know….

 

[matti777]

Insult what you don’t understand. Now we know….

You were the one that thought to insult in a forum where people were trying to help someone. You do sound like an old curmungeon and proud of it I guess. Change seems difficult for you....moving on.

 

[Geri O]

You were the one that thought to insult in a forum where people were trying to help someone. You do sound like an old curmungeon and proud of it I guess. Change seems difficult for you....moving on.

Curmudgeon? You better believe it! I worked hard for that! Thanx (I’m not kidding!).

From a playing career to a pro audio career, then back to a playing career again…

From sticking out my ear to see what a system
“Sounds like” to training for and using professional measurement systems to check and verify system performance…,

From using analog consoles to fully immersed in the use, care, and feeding of digital consoles….

From playing on wedges to embracing IEM monitors.

From SVTs to a 7-lb amp head and a pair of 40-lb Subway 115s that thank the Good Lord, sound exactly the same (no measurement needed, just had to go there….)

Yeah, change is a biotch….

Okay, I’m done, too. But it’s because I think you are a good guy and a smart guy in the end and there’s no point in doing this all day.

Cheers…..

 

[matti777]

... pair of 40-lb Subway 115s that thank the Good Lord, sound exactly the same (no measurement needed, just had to go there….)

I really like my Subway 115

ps I'm a smart guy and also smart enough to know there are far smarter people than I in this world

 

[agedhorse]

Tech snobbery at its best...a little threatened by technology?

Some of us lived this technology from its infancy, some of us designed this technology. We have earned the right to call BS when we see it based on decades of experience. 4 different guys, each with decades of real world experience all agree with each other on this. It isn’t a coincidence.