Are you suggesting that in general our fellow bandmates don't have as good control of their volume as in the past?
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Typical wattage used at small bar gigs
- Thread starter Blister
- Start date
Are you suggesting that in general our fellow bandmates don't have as good control of their volume as in the past?
This is exactly what I'm finding so interesting. You (and plenty of others that I know) can gig w/ a small little GK 400 and at 8ohms that ain't much. Others like JoeGeezer feel that they need 600 minimum. I just find it fascinating.
The difference between 150 watts and 600 watts is 6 dB(Given the same speaker configuration). No much really. And the 600 watt head might not be rated truly.
Well I understand that it takes 10 times the watts to double the volume. So your point really only heightens my curiousity about what people feel they need in terms of power for a small to medium bar gig.
LOL! Well you're one of the more level-headed 4-figure watters. Too many people recommend it as a minimum. But hey, if you can afford it and you want it, it's there for ya!Jimmy, I don't think I'm part of that debate. I'm not sure how much headroom I need, but I have run out of headroom using 650 watts into an inefficient 4x10 cabinet while playing with a loud modern rock band (radio rock) at a fairly large bar where I did not receive PA support. Then there are the occasional outdoor gigs where I don't get PA support. So, I will say that I sometimes do need 1000 watts. But that's me. I would not recommend a 1000 watt rig to someone who did not need that much power.
Keep in mind that a 1000W amp is not ten times as loud as a 100W amp, it is only twice as loud... assuming the speakers can handle it.
Speaking of speakers, my standard recommendation is to match the amp to the speakers (and vice versa). I wouldn't recommend 1000W to someone who had a speaker cab rated for only 200W.
Band volume makes a huge difference. But so does speaker sensitivity.
I tried out an 8 ohm Acme B210 at a fairly loud practice once. With the poor iAMP500 maxed and the low end seriously cut I couldn't get loud enough. I had to go back to my CXL-112. Definitely needed more hp for the B210, but the CXL-112 was fine.
I tried out an 8 ohm Acme B210 at a fairly loud practice once. With the poor iAMP500 maxed and the low end seriously cut I couldn't get loud enough. I had to go back to my CXL-112. Definitely needed more hp for the B210, but the CXL-112 was fine.
Just depends on how i'm feeling that day. Some days i'll haul the SVT 4 Pro and 610HLF. Others i'll just tote the B200R.
300 here through a 210, about 30% of max output only to cover stage volume (guitarists are far too loud). drummer sometimes asks for single 15 combo extension to better feel bass, but i use it lightly to avoid making too much mess for foh engineer - he gets me sounding bad ass out front!
As noted by others, it depends on how loud the band is playing. I would prefer to play in quieter bands, but I'm now competing with hard-hitting drummers who have loud kits, and SRV-style guitarists who say they need volume for their tone and sustain. On top of that, I rarely get PA assistance for my bass -- my stage rig has to fill the room, and sometimes the room is large.
So, I usually bring a big stage rig: I always have the option of turning it down for quieter gigs. On the other hand, a small rig will only go so loud. My axiom is "better safe than sorry".
I understand what you're saying and certainly agree that a lot depends on how reasonable your fellow bandmates are. But are guitarist and drummers really any louder than they were during the late 60 and early 70's, when Hendrix/Clapton/ were all the rage? Aren't many SVR styled guitarist using essentially vintage rigs from back in the 60-70's? (I'm honestly asking 'cause I don't know for sure.) I don't recall ever having PA for anything other than vocals back then. Remember that the big rig of the day was the Acoustic 360 and with its 200 watts would be considered anemic by today's standards but I don't ever recall not being able to hear the bass player using one. And many bass players played with less (I played with a Dual Showman and a 2x15 bottom as an example).
Further, many using less powerful rigs often describe themselves as playing with 'loud guitarist and hard hitting drummers' (see rugaar/coreyfyfe as examples) so I still see a paradox.
I just find it interesting.
Passinwind
I know nothing.
- Dec 3, 2003
- 23,077
- 46,033
- Disclosures
- Designer/Toaster Tech @ Passinwind Electronics
I think a lot of it may be just that, right there. With the advent of the BIG Kick Drum sound we got big bass amps.
Personally, I use a 500 watt amp for drumless jazz trio gigs at wineries, restaurants, and whatnot. It just plain sounds better to me than anything smaller/lighter I've owned or tried. And since my whole rig only weighs 55 pounds, in two pieces, I see no reason at all to ever go smaller.
I think a lot of it may be just that, right there. With the advent of the BIG Kick Drum sound we got big bass amps.
Personally, I use a 500 watt amp for drumless jazz trio gigs at wineries, restaurants, and whatnot. It just plain sounds better to me than anything smaller/lighter I've owned or tried. And since my whole rig only weighs 55 pounds, in two pieces, I see no reason at all to ever go smaller.
I'm not sure that PA support at the average bar gig really is what perplexes me. Its more about why the wide differences in the power needs of 'current players'.
As far as your rig goes seems to me you picked it due to tone and convenience rather than a need for 500 watts. I understand that ok.
butchblack
Life is short. Do good. Find and do what you love.
I think you can add that the bass has come out more in the mix and more bassists want to be clearly heard in that mix.
A good example. I go to a small invite only jam a couple times a month. I'm one of two bassists that show up. I'm the quiet bassist and usually down in the mix. The other is the loud bassist, he's up in the mix and his sets tend to be louder overall. Different philosophies ( Course now in my own band I need to make sure I'm up enough in the mix that my bandmates can hear me.)
I think we all want to be heard. And yea I guess some want to be heard more - so to speak. But lets take a look again at the examples I gave earlier of some low wattage bass amps in action and ask the question - can you hear the bass alright?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ea6ZcfJspcI
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LpVGXcblBhg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=O4Sfh8LFMaw
Interesting thread....I will share my ideas with it.
60's and 70's bass - low mids 200-400hz, plus a good response in the 80-100hz range was a big thing for bass players. It generally created a muddy, but hugely audible bass tone for the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Journey and so on.... Nowadays, it seems like we are trying way too hard to get 30hz audible to the audience when in reality we need to let the PA system do that. Even then, a PA system really should focus on 40hz and forget 30hz to save power since the human ear can't pick it up 30hz too well.
I have two Eden 410XLT's and a Mesa 400+. Very loud rig that works great. I also have a backup Trace Elliot head that does 600 watts. At the smallest bars, it's one 410 and the Trace head - plenty loud. I have a loud drummer, guitarist with 100 watts of tube through a 212 and another guitarist with 135 watts of tube through a 410. At a recent show, I had the Mesa 400+ plugged into both 410's and that was too loud, so I went to one cab - I had the volume down to a level I never thought I would turn down to - plus I had to decreas ethe 40-200hz range by about 5db across the board just to keep my tone in check. At another venue, I had both speakers blasting away fairly loud. At another venue, I had to turn down my rig because all the people in the room were "catching" the bass frequencies in the room leading to a very muddy bass tone. Keep in mind that my tone is everything flat with a boost at 1.5-3khz: all shows.
The big thing that is being ignored in this thread is the acoustic response of the stage and room that you are playing in. Certain stages allow the bass tone to resonate ungodly loud while other stages will suck up your low end beyond belief. People are bass catching traps at a show, the more there are, the more your bass frequencies will bounce off of them and not travel so far. Certain bars have wood paneling on the floor and walls - the sounds coming from the band will bounce very strongly off of the walls. Some places have a crappy stage that is mainly open underneath and that translates to a thinner sounding bass tone.
I am also amazed at how many people are playing through PA systems. My band (90%) of all shows have us providing our own PA (Chicago show primarily) - which is for vocals only. The rest of the sound is just coming from our own rigs. The shows where we have had a PA system - we did not even need it. The room would have been handled just fine by our rigs/our PA.
The placement of the bass rig also determines how loud and how good it will sound. Against a wall gives you more bass, directs the bass towards the audience more. Back of the stage versus just being placed in the middle of the stage - big difference in perceived low end.
Side note - scooped tones are getting way too common. I heard a bass player pound out Jimmi Hendrix - Purple haze with a scooped tone. You could not hear much of anything he played with his fingers. It's like he forgot that many of those Hendrix songs featured a very muddy bass tone throughout the song. The muddy bass tone could cut through that wall of guitar noise! What's the first thing I see at every Guitar Center amp? Smiley-face tone! Sounds like crap! Scooped tones take a lot of headroom, and speaker surface area to get cooking. They can be made audible, but I have only witnessed it with a large PA system.
60's and 70's bass - low mids 200-400hz, plus a good response in the 80-100hz range was a big thing for bass players. It generally created a muddy, but hugely audible bass tone for the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Journey and so on.... Nowadays, it seems like we are trying way too hard to get 30hz audible to the audience when in reality we need to let the PA system do that. Even then, a PA system really should focus on 40hz and forget 30hz to save power since the human ear can't pick it up 30hz too well.
I have two Eden 410XLT's and a Mesa 400+. Very loud rig that works great. I also have a backup Trace Elliot head that does 600 watts. At the smallest bars, it's one 410 and the Trace head - plenty loud. I have a loud drummer, guitarist with 100 watts of tube through a 212 and another guitarist with 135 watts of tube through a 410. At a recent show, I had the Mesa 400+ plugged into both 410's and that was too loud, so I went to one cab - I had the volume down to a level I never thought I would turn down to - plus I had to decreas ethe 40-200hz range by about 5db across the board just to keep my tone in check. At another venue, I had both speakers blasting away fairly loud. At another venue, I had to turn down my rig because all the people in the room were "catching" the bass frequencies in the room leading to a very muddy bass tone. Keep in mind that my tone is everything flat with a boost at 1.5-3khz: all shows.
The big thing that is being ignored in this thread is the acoustic response of the stage and room that you are playing in. Certain stages allow the bass tone to resonate ungodly loud while other stages will suck up your low end beyond belief. People are bass catching traps at a show, the more there are, the more your bass frequencies will bounce off of them and not travel so far. Certain bars have wood paneling on the floor and walls - the sounds coming from the band will bounce very strongly off of the walls. Some places have a crappy stage that is mainly open underneath and that translates to a thinner sounding bass tone.
I am also amazed at how many people are playing through PA systems. My band (90%) of all shows have us providing our own PA (Chicago show primarily) - which is for vocals only. The rest of the sound is just coming from our own rigs. The shows where we have had a PA system - we did not even need it. The room would have been handled just fine by our rigs/our PA.
The placement of the bass rig also determines how loud and how good it will sound. Against a wall gives you more bass, directs the bass towards the audience more. Back of the stage versus just being placed in the middle of the stage - big difference in perceived low end.
Side note - scooped tones are getting way too common. I heard a bass player pound out Jimmi Hendrix - Purple haze with a scooped tone. You could not hear much of anything he played with his fingers. It's like he forgot that many of those Hendrix songs featured a very muddy bass tone throughout the song. The muddy bass tone could cut through that wall of guitar noise! What's the first thing I see at every Guitar Center amp? Smiley-face tone! Sounds like crap! Scooped tones take a lot of headroom, and speaker surface area to get cooking. They can be made audible, but I have only witnessed it with a large PA system.
Gearhead thanks for a very thoughtful response. I have mentioned the prominence of the scooped tone as one that needs a lot of watts to get thru. I will also take issue with respect to your comments about 'muddy' tones thru the 60-70's. To my way of thinking there is a huge difference between muddy and non-sizzle tweeter-less definitively bass sounding bass guitars. I think the 60-70's featured that latter vs. the former.
Pedro - Thanks dude. I love muddy bass tones - my current bass is very thick sounding and very reminiscent of the 70's tone.
Just wanted to follow up and say that those of us who use small rigs with not much wattage are either:
1. Not using a scooped tone
2. Uses the mids to their advantage
3. Placing their rig in a good location on stage
4. Or only have it loud enough for the drummer and themself
to hear.
5. Obviously, low volume onstage to have the PA blast it out.
Regardless, we should all do what we feel is necessary at shows. My rig is overkill, but I like the fact that everyone can hear me loud and clear at shows. I don't go on stage to play background rumble. Of course, everyone can hear my band fairly evenly live. You got to be a team player! I could drown out my band, but even I can admit there can be too much bass in a live setting!
Just wanted to follow up and say that those of us who use small rigs with not much wattage are either:
1. Not using a scooped tone
2. Uses the mids to their advantage
3. Placing their rig in a good location on stage
4. Or only have it loud enough for the drummer and themself
to hear.
5. Obviously, low volume onstage to have the PA blast it out.
Regardless, we should all do what we feel is necessary at shows. My rig is overkill, but I like the fact that everyone can hear me loud and clear at shows. I don't go on stage to play background rumble. Of course, everyone can hear my band fairly evenly live. You got to be a team player! I could drown out my band, but even I can admit there can be too much bass in a live setting!
