Typical wattage used at small bar gigs

[Lowbrow]

Times have changed. Generation More gave way to Generation Excessively More.

I wouldn't go so far as to categorize folks in pejorative terms - it's not their fault.

It's probably just a symptom of having so much available, that when people see the upper limit (figure about 1,600 watts) that they start to consider 800 watts as "medium."

When the over-35 set of us were coming up, the 360-watt SVT was the absolute monster amp that everyone coveted, and nobody really needed outside of Madison Square Garden. Nowadays, when you can pick up a tiny LMKII that puts out 500 watts and can fit in your gig bag, the perception "low, medium, and high" wattage completely changes.

Like I've posted before, necessary volume is ruled by the same laws of physics that it was ruled by since Ogg the caveman beat on a rock with a bone. But psychology intrudes upon physics, and bassists come to believe that only 800 watts will do in the very same room in which 200 watts had soundpersons weeping 20 years ago.

And that's still true: if you walk in with 1,600 watts, the soundperson will STILL have you set it at the same decibel level that was acceptable for the 200-watter! So, buy whatever wattage you want, but you'll only be able to use what is appropriate.

Lowbrow

 

[pedro]

and bassists come to believe that only 800 watts will do in the very same room in which 200 watts had soundpersons weeping 20 years ago.

And that's still true: if you walk in with 1,600 watts, the soundperson will STILL have you set it at the same decibel level that was acceptable for the 200-watter! So, buy whatever wattage you want, but you'll only be able to use what is appropriate.

I'll buy that.

 

[chadds]

Back in 1967 I grew up using 35-85-100-200 watts and I really know what I want now. 500 to 1500 watts through a capable 1x12, 2 1x12s, 310s, 2x15+ etc. gives me the kind of full bodied sound with good frequency projection over the tonal range of my bass. I don't play loud but I am present.
I do have a BBII that's 160 watts. It's fine. I gigged it three times a week for several years. I have used a 30 watt 1x8 in many situations.
I heard a local band using underpowered fender amps and such, strain the ears of an audience. Great PA by the way.
The headliner "Cold Blood" with Lydia Pence on vocals was much louder. There sound however was very pure and clear. The bands own mix was perfect, the bass present and punchy. It was soothing on the ears.
Sound as good as you can afford.

 

[Lowbrow]

Back in 1967 I grew up using 35-85-100-200 watts and I really know what I want now. 500 to 1500 watts through a capable 1x12, 2 1x12s, 310s, 2x15+ etc. gives me the kind of full bodied sound with good frequency projection over the tonal range of my bass. I don't play loud but I am present.
I do have a BBII that's 160 watts. It's fine. I gigged it three times a week for several years. I have used a 30 watt 1x8 in many situations.
I heard a local band using underpowered fender amps and such, strain the ears of an audience. Great PA by the way.
The headliner "Cold Blood" with Lydia Pence on vocals was much louder. There sound however was very pure and clear. The bands own mix was perfect, the bass present and punchy. It was soothing on the ears.
Sound as good as you can afford.

Chad -- your profile lists such an extensive and impressive array of amplification that I cannot begin to question your personal experience with getting your signal across. I guess it all depends on who you're playing with, their relative experience, and their stage-level preference. And yes, there is the matter of sound vs. volume. But I'm sure that, like me, you've heard people play way too loud for a given room, or even for plain musicality's sake. This is the must to avoid: having access to way too much, and having no idea how to use it with discretion.

 

[pedro]

The headliner "Cold Blood" with Lydia Pence on vocals was much louder. There sound however was very pure and clear. The bands own mix was perfect, the bass present and punchy. It was soothing on the ears.
Sound as good as you can afford.

Come again? Didn't follow.

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

Just wondering what you guys use for watts at a typical smaller bar gig? Also how far is it turned up

400 Watts, and I turn it maybe, 1/2 way up, but no more. Remember though, that does NOT equal 200 watts. It's not a direct ratio thing. Also some amp's 400 watts is different than others. Also, if you run a small combo amp (140, for example) if you also us a DI, you can run the combo for stage volume and let the PA do the heavy lifting. This is MUCH preferred, IMO, to just getting a louder amp. And it will help save your back from heavy lifting. I would not use less than 50 watts for a smaller bar gig, even DI-ed, but 400 watts can be overkill, depending on amps. At a certain point, I think bands sound better just turned down. At a cetain point, it's aural overload.

Just my two cents.

 

[chadds]

Come again? Didn't follow.

Aside from their skill as musicians Cold Blood's sound was clear with plenty of headroom. The previous band was maxing their gear running out of headroom and putting out a lot of skwawk. Though putting out more decibels Cold Blood was clear and present. They had 7 musicians compared to the openers 4. They had a Hammond B3 with two Leslies. Headroom.

 

[chadds]

Come again? Didn't follow.

Aside from their skill as musicians Cold Blood's sound was clear with plenty of headroom. The previous band was maxing their gear running out of headroom and putting out a lot of skwawk. Though putting out more decibels Cold Blood was clear and present. They had 7 musicians compared to the opener's 4. They had a Hammond B3 with two Leslies. Headroom. Nothing was driven to distortion except the guitar when appropriate.

 

[Eilif]

For small to med-small gigs of all types, I bring an Ampeg Portabass 250 (250 watt head) and a Portabass 210 cab (2x10). It sounds great, and is more than enough for most situations! It was one of the earlier "lightweight rigs" and is outclassed, by todays shuttle, markbass, etc, etc, smaller rigs, but after about 60 or so shows it's still going strong, and sounds great. It's also nice to have an amp that fits in a shoulder bag, and a cab that rolls in on suitcase cart.

Alot of "enough" depends not only on the wattage, but on where you stand in relation to your amp, how/if you tilt your amp, especially how willing your bandmates are to play at reasonable volumes and a host of other factors. If you have a great PA system, you can play direct on a huge stage and it will be fine... though for big stages, I bring a fridge.

 

[pedro]

Aside from their skill as musicians Cold Blood's sound was clear with plenty of headroom. The previous band was maxing their gear running out of headroom and putting out a lot of skwawk. Though putting out more decibels Cold Blood was clear and present. They had 7 musicians compared to the opener's 4. They had a Hammond B3 with two Leslies. Headroom. Nothing was driven to distortion except the guitar when appropriate.

Ok I was confused as to who was using 'underpowered Fenders'.

 

[Jim Carr]

I just carry 1000W to any gig. There's a volume knob.

+1

My CA6 is my favorite lead sled. It is 2 channels of 600 watts at 4 ohms, and bridges into 1500 watts mono (which I have little use for). It sits in a rack with a preamp I love. The rack is now about 75 lbs, but my hand truck hasn't asked for a raise.

I vary the speaker acreage to fit the situation, using either 2x10, 4x10, or both.

I like having two channels so I can balance the power sent to my 2 different type cabs when I am "loaded for bear."

 

[pedro]

Nice to see ya Jim.

 

[Robert Sjea]

If I could momentarily borrow or side track the thread my interest lies in how and why there seems to be such a huge difference in what folks seem to need. I'm honestly not criticizing anyone but how is it possible that JimmyM (and others) can gig with a B15 and others still (myself included) with a V4b and others need 3-4+ more power? Is it style of music? Is it bass mix expectation? Is it the popularity of slap and a scooped tone that generally goes with it? How was it (as in the examples I posted above) that so many bands played so many venues successfully with so much less?

(pedro rambles on.)

I'm wondering as well. I'm unloading my Ampeg B2 combo (200w/350 extended) to go with a V4b and an Avatar 212. I can't imagine I'd need more in a mid-sized venue. Would almost be painfully loud, in my opinion.

 

[GreyBeard]

It depends on your speakers. I worked for many yrs with 200 watts into a Hartke 4.5XL and was never wanting no matter how loud the gig. Before that I used a Sunn 200S (80 watts I think) with 2x15 EV's. Still loud enough because the speakers were so efficient. But some speakers need a lot of power. With an Acme b4 you need at least 400 watts just to get it started. So it depends on your speakers and the volume you expect them to operate at.

 

[Jim Carr]

Nice to see ya Jim.

Hi Pedro!
MACA may have used a 50 watt bassman 2x12 silverface on the Let It Be rooftop "gig," but the reality is that several years of touring had matured his sound/film crew big time. Thus that final gig really was just basically a film shoot with live recorded sound, no? The audio was obviously remixed for the film and the LP.

That said you have a valid question, here. Yet, all I can say is that having 350 watts into 4 ohms with a 1x15 and a 4x10 was sometimes not enough for me in a large club with a 10 piece horn band using a very modest PA.

For me a 2 channel CA-6 lets me have one or two 600 watt 4 ohm channels. Sounds like a lot, right?

Yet, aren't we forgetting that in terms of audio loudness, 600 watts is only twice as much power as 60?

Aside--BTW, I'm back in Kentucky teaching and playing Woodsongs, Biscuits in the Wind, Mama Tried, jazz casuals, etc. How is TX going for the youngster? On the road yet?

-Jim

 

[pedro]

Hi Pedro!
MACA may have used a 50 watt bassman 2x12 silverface on the Let It Be rooftop "gig," but the reality is that several years of touring had matured his sound/film crew big time. Thus that final gig really was just basically a film shoot with live recorded sound, no? The audio was obviously remixed for the film and the LP.

That said you have a valid question, here. Yet, all I can say is that having 350 watts into 4 ohms with a 1x15 and a 4x10 was sometimes not enough for me in a large club with a 10 piece horn band using a very modest PA.

For me a 2 channel CA-6 lets me have one or two 600 watt 4 ohm channels. Sounds like a lot, right?

Yet, aren't we forgetting that in terms of audio loudness, 600 watts is only twice as much power as 60?

Aside--BTW, I'm back in Kentucky teaching and playing Woodsongs, Biscuits in the Wind, Mama Tried, jazz casuals, etc. How is TX going for the youngster? On the road yet?

-Jim

Well Jim lets take 'em one step at time. First of all McCartney was using a 2x15 cab w/ his Bassman. Secondly, I'd remind you that throughout his touring days w/ The Beatles (including Ed Sullivan) he was probably using similar wattage. Now I'll grant you he was underpowered for Shea Stadium and many of the other gigs, but he was perfectly audible and present on Ed Sullivan which is a fairly sizeable theater.

But The Beatles asides there were many, many other famous acts from the 60-70's that did very well with much less watts. Lets take a look.

You say you had a tough time w/ 350 watts and a 1x15+4x10 combo. Perhaps you might want to track down Arthur Conley's bass player and ask him how he did it?



Anyhoo, you maybe right but I believe the question has not really been answered. Why is it that some of can get away do just fine with 60-70-100-200 watts and some guys can't make a coffee house gig w/ less than 500 watts (not an exaggeration as I saw some say this last week)?

As for the kid in Denton, thanks for asking. He's doing fine and we're expecting him home for a few days next week. He's been gigging enough that he's paying most of his own bills for the past 2 yrs so no complaints from me.

 

[ksandvik]

One theory I have about the need of massive wattage is the lack of understanding how the bass fits into the overall wall of sound, it has its own frequency, and not necessary all the way down to low hertz levels. Someone who think that way, i.e. the lower the better, spends more and more money getting higher wattage amps and huge stacks of 15" cabs, while a carefully tuned 12" with 200W or so is all that is needed.

We don't need to move massive amounts of air, but we need to be heard in reasonable frequencies.


--Kent

 

[seanm]

Anyhoo, you maybe right but I believe the question has not really been answered. Why is it that some of can get away do just fine with 60-70-100-200 watts and some guys can't make a coffee house gig w/ less than 500 watts (not an exaggeration as I saw some say this last week)?

Part of that question is, how loud are the other players? I have played outdoor gigs with my iAMP and two 1x12s with no problems. I have played gigs with the iAMP and one 1x12. I have played a practice where the iAMP and the 1x12 was totally inadequate

In the last case the guitar player bought a new guitar and cranked the amp up. Needless to say, I had to wear earplugs

And if I was playing a coffee hour gig, I would probably bring 500W. Not that I would *need* it, but at 44 pounds, it is the lightest rig I have and very easy to move around.

 

[pedro]

Part of that question is, how loud are the other players? I have played outdoor gigs with my iAMP and two 1x12s with no problems. I have played gigs with the iAMP and one 1x12. I have played a practice where the iAMP and the 1x12 was totally inadequate

In the last case the guitar player bought a new guitar and cranked the amp up. Needless to say, I had to wear earplugs

And if I was playing a coffee hour gig, I would probably bring 500W. Not that I would *need* it, but at 44 pounds, it is the lightest rig I have and very easy to move around.

I would agree that the volume of the other players plays a role. As for the 500 watt rig at the coffee house gig the fellow I was referring to said 500 watts wasn't enough. Go figure.

 

[seanm]

I would agree that the volume of the other players plays a role. As for the 500 watt rig at the coffee house gig the fellow I was referring to said 500 watts wasn't enough. Go figure.

Yikes! Ok, that is a bit different....