About a year ago we moved closer to my wife's work and most the churches in town don't believe in what you would call modern music. We found a church that does play Christian rock (and we agree with their beliefs) and we've been going there. The music leader/ singer/ keyboardist/ guitar player (get the picture) is rumored to be very controlling about who plays what, exactly what. There are 3 services and the Saturday night service is rumored to need a new bass player. When I spoke to the leader about an audition he asked about my qualifications. I've been playing bass for 30 years, I've played in two other churches before this and before that I played bars. When I told him I played both fretted and fretless he got a kinda funny look on his face and said "I realize there's a place for fretless but I don't think we'll ever do anything where we need fretless". That hurt because I love playing fretless especially on some of the slower songs. The bass player on Sunday mornings, wears the bass like a guitar (slung low) and plays with a pick and plays a very basic bass part, in short I think he's just a guitar player who couldn't quite make the cut so he settled for bass. I was really pumped about possibly playing with this band (I've got another little 4 piece I'm playing with on Tuesday's) but now I'm not so sure. I was thinking of taking both the fretted and the fretless to the audition and if he told me to just use the fretted, I'd just tell him to forget it. I absolutely love playing live on Sunday morning but I'm not sure it's worth it.
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Tyrant Music leader?
- Thread starter tonylevinkix
- Start date
- Jan 12, 2011
- 4,578
- 2,460
- Disclosures
- Artist, Trickfish Amplification Bartolini Emerging Artist, MTD Kingston Emerging Artist. Artist, Tsunami Cables
I can tell you already that it's not going to work. I hate it when someone else tells me or dictates what tool to use without even checking it out. He's closed minded and will make you goregt your religion. 
If you do play, it will be a great scarifice and turn into another source of frustration. Qualifications??????? man just give me an audition. All he had top do was give you a time and place to audition. He's full of himself.
If you do play, it will be a great scarifice and turn into another source of frustration. Qualifications??????? man just give me an audition. All he had top do was give you a time and place to audition. He's full of himself.
I would bring and play both.
Maybe he just hasn't experienced somebody playing a fretless that can actually play it well. However, it might be the time for him to experience how nicely a fretless works in slower songs. Unfortunately you may be dealing with one of those guys that want a bass player simply 'cause "yer supposed to have one", and really isn't interested in the possibilities a GOOD bass player can bring to the table.
I play everything as well (guitar, bass, keys, drums, crappy vocals) and I found that I now have a better appreciation of each instrument on its own, so when writing or arranging a song I try to make sure everyone gets a moment to shine and have fun. I don't mean solos and such, I just mean making each instrument have its space in the mix, and room to stretch if the song can support it. Song first and all that....
Maybe he just hasn't experienced somebody playing a fretless that can actually play it well. However, it might be the time for him to experience how nicely a fretless works in slower songs. Unfortunately you may be dealing with one of those guys that want a bass player simply 'cause "yer supposed to have one", and really isn't interested in the possibilities a GOOD bass player can bring to the table.
I play everything as well (guitar, bass, keys, drums, crappy vocals) and I found that I now have a better appreciation of each instrument on its own, so when writing or arranging a song I try to make sure everyone gets a moment to shine and have fun. I don't mean solos and such, I just mean making each instrument have its space in the mix, and room to stretch if the song can support it. Song first and all that....
Unless he's paying you as much as your employer, do ya really need another boss?
Tyrant and/or misguided leaders make too many bands a chore. The modest or nonexistent wages generally lead to constant turnover.
Tyrant and/or misguided leaders make too many bands a chore. The modest or nonexistent wages generally lead to constant turnover.
Part of me wants to go to the "audition" and see what happens, if he comes off too controlling but says I've got the gig I need to have the courage to say "yeah but I don't need this". Maybe he'll learn that the world doesn't revolve around him.
Unless he has actual experience playing bass, he has no real, educated, opinion on what type of bass fits anywhere! Many folks play fretless but aproach it like a fretted. I couldn't even tell. They even slapped on it!
I just don't like closed mindedness! Wouldn't be the place for me!
Perhaps he doesnt know your expereince and he thinks if you have a fretless you will be going sour on the notes and this does happen as fretless takes discipline. Hes prolly had some bad experiences and he has a big ego.
Steely Dan is known for bieng stickles around details, they told Chuck Rainey that they dint want any Slap playing on PEG when he suggested it. During recording he blocked sight of his Bass with a sound panel and did what he does, they loved the take and dint realize that he slaps the Bass during the chorus but they loved the way it sounded.
If you really dig the project, go in there and prove yourself to Hitler with a fretted Bass, when hes not suspecting it, throw in your frettless and see if he notices, chances are he will like it.
Steely Dan is known for bieng stickles around details, they told Chuck Rainey that they dint want any Slap playing on PEG when he suggested it. During recording he blocked sight of his Bass with a sound panel and did what he does, they loved the take and dint realize that he slaps the Bass during the chorus but they loved the way it sounded.
If you really dig the project, go in there and prove yourself to Hitler with a fretted Bass, when hes not suspecting it, throw in your frettless and see if he notices, chances are he will like it.
I'd go to the audition with the fretted and see what you think. If you hear a song that calls out for fretless, pitch it and see what happens. Maybe wait to see what gets him excited about music and tie your pitch for fretless as something that supports rather than detracts from the feel.
From what you've stated so far, I don't think you have enough info at this point to write it off altogether.
From what you've stated so far, I don't think you have enough info at this point to write it off altogether.
I've heard that one of the worship leaders at our church is a real ***** to work with. I like her. She has ideas about what she wants, and she'll tell you what they are. It's all about the worship. Ego has no place in a church band.
That being said, if the worship leader is way over stepping the definition of "leader", and you're uncomfortable with it, don't play in the praise band.
That being said, if the worship leader is way over stepping the definition of "leader", and you're uncomfortable with it, don't play in the praise band.
If I were in your shoes, and I was certain I wanted the gig (under the right circumstances at least), I think I would cut to the chase: I would try to establish myself as his musical equal - while being non-confrontational about it.
Example: Look him right in the eye, and in a pleasant, non-confrontational way, tell him: "I'll be honest with you. I've heard rumors that you're a control freak. But I don't believe in pre-judging people, and would much prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt, by keeping an open mind and an open heart toward them. If you can appreciate where I'm coming from, then maybe you wouldn't mind treating me the same way in return.
I'd really love to contribute my gifts & talents to your worship services. I think I could make a valuable addition here. Why don't we just schedule the audition, I'll show you what I can do, and we can play together for a bit - without any prejudging. Afterward maybe we could talk about what I could do to contribute, and we just take it from there?"
If the guy has a negative reaction to your display of upfrontness & self-confidence, that would be your cue to bail out. But if he's cool with it - and he even seems to appreciate the straight talk, and is not intimidated by it - then who knows? It might work after all...
MM
Psshh. I play almost exclusively fretless in Churches. Every now and then I'll bust out a fretted just for fun. Done it for many years. Never had a single problem.
OTOH, I've had a couple folks in rock bands that didn't care for it. Too bad for them.
OTOH, I've had a couple folks in rock bands that didn't care for it. Too bad for them.
Reminds me of when my girlfriend was asked by her boss at the bar she worked to write a sign outside, saying 'in a polite way', "No Blacks"
If I were in your shoes, and I was certain I wanted the gig (under the right circumstances at least), I think I would cut to the chase: I would try to establish myself as his musical equal - while being non-confrontational about it.
Example: Look him right in the eye, and in a pleasant, non-confrontational way, tell him: "I'll be honest with you. I've heard rumors that you're a control freak. But I don't believe in pre-judging people, and would much prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt, by keeping an open mind and an open heart toward them. If you can appreciate where I'm coming from, then maybe you wouldn't mind treating me the same way in return.
I'd really love to contribute my gifts & talents to your worship services. I think I could make a valuable addition here. Why don't we just schedule the audition, I'll show you what I can do, and we can play together for a bit - without any prejudging. Afterward maybe we could talk about what I could do to contribute, and we just take it from there?"
If the guy has a negative reaction to your display of upfrontness & self-confidence, that would be your cue to bail out. But if he's cool with it - and he even seems to appreciate the straight talk, and is not intimidated by it - then who knows? It might work after all...
MM
Is it possible to tell somebody you've heard they were controlfreak nicely? But I do believe in keeping an open mind (if possible) until see it for your self. You guys have been really helpful, bassplayers understand one another and have each others back; when there not competeing for the same spot.
I've heard that this can be an issue in some church bands. Unfortunate. Moot point for me since I work a lot of weekends.
Sure. As long as it's clear that you're not rendering your own judgment (How could you? You're barely acquainted with him!), and merely mentioning what you've heard.
If I understood your original post correctly, your goal is to earn a spot in the church band - on terms that you can live with (i.e. including some respect) - not necessarily just to earn a spot. So this is a way to show the guy what you're made of - as a man, and as a musician (at the audition).
I suppose you could always proceed in a meeker, milder way. But then you might have the task of trying to win the guy's respect - slowly and tediously - from a one-down position.
Your call...
MM
Okay, I am gonna throw my hat in the ring. You and I share a lot of common ground: I have been playing for about 45 years, I grew up playing in honky-tonks and illegal bars. Through the years I have played in just about every type of band out there. In 1988, my life got turned around, and I have played only Christian music since then.
I started playing fretless about 20 years ago, and I now see fretless as my main enjoyment. I do still play fretted basses also. All 5'ers by the way.
Here is my offering:
Please know, I am just trying too help out, and I certainly am not trying to cast any accusations.
1. The bass chair is any band is a servant / support postion.
2. To a certain degree, all BLs (aka Worship Leaders) are at times hard to work with. Myself, I see this as a two-way street. Make yourself overly accommodating, and both sides win.
3. Start with as simple a set-up as possible
4. A praise band at church is very different from a working, gigging band. If you burn the mid-night oil getting a complex song down, chances are very good no one else will even practice it outside of rehearsal. So be flexible on arrangements and chord changes. Be prepared to play songs "wrong".
5. I would let the whole fretless / fretted thing slide , and later on work your fretless in a low key manner. Another thought concerning fretless is the BL may not even know what you mean by fretless, maybe he pictures an upright, or maybe he has some negative connotation when he thinks "fretless".
6. Probably the last thing I would do is confront him, calling him names, try to "level" the ground with self-edifying commits, or even being pushy and "demanding" an audition.
7. Just be honest and up-front. Tell him your exprience playing praise music. Make him aware you are a serious musician, and would be dependable, and prompt. Inform him of your practice habits outside of rehearsal time.
8. Make yourself available and be as flexiable as you can. Make sure any commitment you are required to make is one that you will have no problem keeping.
9. Again, I personally would avoid confrontation, Commit to being a dedicated band member, offer your talent, and go into all this with a mindset to serve.
I started playing fretless about 20 years ago, and I now see fretless as my main enjoyment. I do still play fretted basses also. All 5'ers by the way.
Here is my offering:
Please know, I am just trying too help out, and I certainly am not trying to cast any accusations.
1. The bass chair is any band is a servant / support postion.
2. To a certain degree, all BLs (aka Worship Leaders) are at times hard to work with. Myself, I see this as a two-way street. Make yourself overly accommodating, and both sides win.
3. Start with as simple a set-up as possible
4. A praise band at church is very different from a working, gigging band. If you burn the mid-night oil getting a complex song down, chances are very good no one else will even practice it outside of rehearsal. So be flexible on arrangements and chord changes. Be prepared to play songs "wrong".
5. I would let the whole fretless / fretted thing slide , and later on work your fretless in a low key manner. Another thought concerning fretless is the BL may not even know what you mean by fretless, maybe he pictures an upright, or maybe he has some negative connotation when he thinks "fretless".
6. Probably the last thing I would do is confront him, calling him names, try to "level" the ground with self-edifying commits, or even being pushy and "demanding" an audition.
7. Just be honest and up-front. Tell him your exprience playing praise music. Make him aware you are a serious musician, and would be dependable, and prompt. Inform him of your practice habits outside of rehearsal time.
8. Make yourself available and be as flexiable as you can. Make sure any commitment you are required to make is one that you will have no problem keeping.
9. Again, I personally would avoid confrontation, Commit to being a dedicated band member, offer your talent, and go into all this with a mindset to serve.
jive1
Commercial User
I play fretless at church, and haven't seen a reason yet why it won't fit. But there's some points I'd like to make.
First off, you guys are passing alot of judgement and making negative assumptions about a guy that you don't know or haven't met yet. Too often what someone says about someone prior to meeting them will taint the way you see them and interact with them once you finally meet or work with them. My policy, I'll give you the opportunity to prove that you are a jerk, tyrant, etc. before I think you are one. I think the guy's reputation may have tainted your experience with him, and had you loaded for bear when you didn't need to.
Second, the person you should be talking to about all this is the WL. When he said that there wouldn't be much need for fretless, you should have continued the discussion there, not on this board. If you're going to work with the guy, you will need to communicate with him/her sooner or later. Maybe the guy had bad experiences with a fretless or doesn't know much, and may be open to it. Maybe the guy has a clear vision that he doesn't want to deviate from.
Third, you're there to serve. Leave the ego at home. If you're in a huff and finding the need to vent because someone won't let you use one of your toys, you should rethink why you're doing this. The WL at my church doesn't like me to play busy bass-lines or groove too much because it may distract from the message or the spirit of the song, meditation, etc. Having played urban Gospel at a previous church, it was a change for me, but I could understand where he's coming from. It's not about me, or my expression, it's about service.
Before you make any decisions, talk to the WL some more before taking the jump-to-conclusions, mob approach of an online forum. Being a WL involves taking input from many different people from musicians, pastor, congregants, commitees, etc. and trying to piece them together into something workable. Something will have to give, otherwise you'd have a worship team full of so-and-so's kid who started taking lessons last month, the guy who feels 'called' to be a musician even though they never played an instrument before, satan worshippers who are looking to make a quick buck to buy animal sacrifices, a choir full of out of tune singers, etc. You'll be doing old hymns, CCM, gospel, secular songs, Christian metal fused with Gospel Hip Hop, hootenany campfire retreat songs and gregorian chants, with solos for flute, bass, clarinet, tuba, guitar, keyboard, all taken at random places within a song depending on how the musicians feel at the moment.
First off, you guys are passing alot of judgement and making negative assumptions about a guy that you don't know or haven't met yet. Too often what someone says about someone prior to meeting them will taint the way you see them and interact with them once you finally meet or work with them. My policy, I'll give you the opportunity to prove that you are a jerk, tyrant, etc. before I think you are one. I think the guy's reputation may have tainted your experience with him, and had you loaded for bear when you didn't need to.
Second, the person you should be talking to about all this is the WL. When he said that there wouldn't be much need for fretless, you should have continued the discussion there, not on this board. If you're going to work with the guy, you will need to communicate with him/her sooner or later. Maybe the guy had bad experiences with a fretless or doesn't know much, and may be open to it. Maybe the guy has a clear vision that he doesn't want to deviate from.
Third, you're there to serve. Leave the ego at home. If you're in a huff and finding the need to vent because someone won't let you use one of your toys, you should rethink why you're doing this. The WL at my church doesn't like me to play busy bass-lines or groove too much because it may distract from the message or the spirit of the song, meditation, etc. Having played urban Gospel at a previous church, it was a change for me, but I could understand where he's coming from. It's not about me, or my expression, it's about service.
Before you make any decisions, talk to the WL some more before taking the jump-to-conclusions, mob approach of an online forum. Being a WL involves taking input from many different people from musicians, pastor, congregants, commitees, etc. and trying to piece them together into something workable. Something will have to give, otherwise you'd have a worship team full of so-and-so's kid who started taking lessons last month, the guy who feels 'called' to be a musician even though they never played an instrument before, satan worshippers who are looking to make a quick buck to buy animal sacrifices, a choir full of out of tune singers, etc. You'll be doing old hymns, CCM, gospel, secular songs, Christian metal fused with Gospel Hip Hop, hootenany campfire retreat songs and gregorian chants, with solos for flute, bass, clarinet, tuba, guitar, keyboard, all taken at random places within a song depending on how the musicians feel at the moment.
Sure, its as easy as telling a stranger that they suffer from BO.....nicely.....
When one person has a job, and another wants that job, they are not equals.
