Actually, I know, because I'm me, and I know who I am.
You don't know me, so I'm a little taken aback at how you are so sure that you can pass judgement on my intonation abilities solely based on my preference for unlined fretless basses.
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Unlined or Lined: Irrelevant?
- Thread starter Dr. Cheese
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Actually, I know, because I'm me, and I know who I am.
You don't know me, so I'm a little taken aback at how you are so sure that you can pass judgement on my intonation abilities solely based on my preference for unlined fretless basses.
I know that if you played a C major scale from 15th fret of the A string, it's going to be a lot more out of tune than someone with lines. Been there, done that.
Actually you don't know that. It seems to me you are coming from a position of ignorance, so I don't actually care what you think, but in the end, lined or unlined is irrelevant once you bring a good ear into the equation. Maybe that's what you're missing? You sure aren't listening now, thats fo' sho'.
The fact that you, by your own admission, can't/couldn't play a C major scale in tune at higher positions on an unlined fingerboard is entirely down to your skills as a player, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the presence or otherwise of fingerboard markings. How is that ironic?
Why do the top players have lines? You were stating earlier about your effortless, perfect intonation above the 12th, I think you are giving your mind a treat... Even the top players don't claim that.
Well you are entitled to your opinion, but it is no more than that. Playing in tune (say within 3 or 4 cents) is not that difficult, provided your ear is sufficiently good. Most of the barriers people place in the way are psychological.
Are you aware of different tuning temperaments? Because that is, I believe, what you're referring to.
Anyone who says a fretted instrument is not able to be perfectly in tune is speaking in regard to a specific temperament.
By your logic, which is not wrong by the way, piano is out of tune with nearly every chord played.
However, according to the temperament used on fretted instruments, the fret lines are perfect for their perfect division of intervals.
But yes, in advanced music we learn of the tuning details you're talking about.
But keep in mind... unless you're playing with other musicians who are tuning outside of equal temperament, then you'd better play exactly on the equal tempered notes (ie... using frets or exactly stopping at the fret lines) or you'll be out of tune with the other instruments.
The tuning issue you're talking about isn't normally a true statement for most of us who are playing with guitarists and keyboardists much of the time.
It does drive me crazy though how a tenth is often sharp on a guitar or bass.... and I too like being able to play double and triple stops using perfect interval tuning on fretless.
But saying the frets or fret lines are out of tune is vague and inaccurate without further explanation since it is perfectly in tune for the equal tempered scale on each individual string.
I used to hand tune my music school's harpsichord to certain keys for certain performances, because that was how things were done back in the days before pianoforte. It's a bizarre thing to hear these days on keyboard though, since we're accustomed to equal tempered piano.
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My opinion is formed by listening to those who are noted for their ability on the instrument and 33 years of playing plus 3 years studying music at academic level. I have not heard one top player claim they have absolutely perfect intonation all over the board. Apart from you that is...
I would take this question over to the DB forum. Below the thumb position, playing "in tune" is a given. In thumb position it is done by the elite.
Possibly. However every single world great concert violinist has been far more than 3 or 4 cents off in concert. I say that from personal experience.... but violin is WAY harder to be perfectly in tune with, particularly in high positions, than bass guitar.
I suspect you're really good with your tuning, so am I. But without fret lines, picking 16th "fret" on D string (just choosing a random example but it's stuff I encounter in my gigs sometimes), jumping from 1st position quickly in a performance, will not guarantee I'll get closer than say within 20% of in tune every time if all I have to go by is a side dot at 15th and 17th "frets". With fret lines, I'll nail it every time when I'm looking. I'll nail it.... sometimes.
It's nothing to do with hearing... by the time you hear it is too late. And horizontal neck jumps like that give you very little if any feel as to where you are, so you're left looking and hoping such a large muscle movement is accurate to within a mm.... I somehow doubt it's within 3 or 4 cents every time.
If it is, that's pretty awesome
Even those aren't created equal. It is no uncommon for a piano to be stretch tuned - the low notes are a little flat and the high notes a little sharp, with an overall 'stretch' of up to ~30 cents from top to bottom. I remember our keyboard player inadvertently pulling up an 'over-stretched' patch. When I mentioned that the piano sounded out of tune against my (fretless unlined) bass, the immediate (inevitable) response was it must be me since the piano couldn't possibly be wrong... It was the piano.
No? Sorry, patch maybe... but common? Not in my experience. Equal tempered keyboard tuning is the standard in non ethnic music all the time. Stretch tuning bass? Can't recall ever hearing it on a piano or keyboard without it being an ethnic patch.
Just my experience
Maybe it's a thing your kb player uses.
I know in some bass synth production stuff, for dance etc, detuning is used a lot intentionally.
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Put a tuner on a FRETTED bass with brand new strings and you may be unpleasantly surprised, especially on lower end instruments.
My Snark guides me on when to change strings.
A good player may be able to play more in tune fretless.
My Snark guides me on when to change strings.
A good player may be able to play more in tune fretless.
Acoustic pianos are often tuned with a little stretch in them, especially those with over 88 keys. This was a patch that had excessive stretch and had been selected inadvertently - It's not something he uses routinely. My point was it was something I could hear that I wasn't expecting to hear and that most wouldn't even notice.
Ah... yes, of course, you're right. I completely forgot about that... at first I was like, stretch tuning? I'm not sure I've heard the term, or thought about the math behind it for a very very very long time.
thanks for that... it's been a while. To have a perfect octave without a beat effect between the 2 notes, there is a subtle detuning of the lower note, but if I recall correctly it's only down in the really low frequencies... I get your point about the extended range pianos.
Now all that being said - again, the intonation and tuning on a single bass guitar string can and should be perfectly mathematically divided so each octave up fretted is 2x the lower octave frequency. And that is what I meant by perfectly in tune, in my original post.
I absolutely guarantee that nearly all of the bassists in this forum didn't know this stuff and possibly think that you and I are completely out to lunch on this topic, since playing in tune in nearly all popular music is a simple as intonation is perfect (not always even on many instruments, though), string tuning is perfect (ignoring old beatles and stones records!), and therefore every note you play is perfect, so just ignore it when it sounds funny, it's gotta be someone else (and it probably IS the guitar player LoL)
Cheers - interesting conversation... something I haven't talked about since my days playing classical music professionally!
I play unlined. Currently I'm playing a show with one violin, 2 celli, and a music director with perfect pitch. If I was out of tune, I'd be told.
The key is making all parts of your technique as consistent as possible, posture, hand position, etc. Also having a practice routine that deals with intonation. It's important to every day match pitches against something like a drove pitch (sine wave works great) and fitting into chords accurately.
Fretted bass is fairly tolerant of sloppy technique. You need to learn what 'in tune' sounds like. You need to learn to listen to every note. If you are not able to hear yourself well on the gig, you'll have problems no matter how well you can play in tune.
The key is making all parts of your technique as consistent as possible, posture, hand position, etc. Also having a practice routine that deals with intonation. It's important to every day match pitches against something like a drove pitch (sine wave works great) and fitting into chords accurately.
Fretted bass is fairly tolerant of sloppy technique. You need to learn what 'in tune' sounds like. You need to learn to listen to every note. If you are not able to hear yourself well on the gig, you'll have problems no matter how well you can play in tune.
I'll just throw in one more thing. Playing 'in tune' is not always about perfect intonation, but there is a big difference between deliberate deviation for the purposes of musical expression or interest and just being 'pitchy'. Sliding around searching for pitch is very different to a well executed vibrato. Making deliberate adjustments to 'sweeten' notes over time, in particular major thirds, is quite different to covering up errors with 'grace notes'. A bunch of slides is quite different to a true melisma such as a vocalist or sitar player might do.
All of these things are part of the language of fretless bass, with or without lines.
All of these things are part of the language of fretless bass, with or without lines.
