Double Bass Upright technique on an electric fret less.

[CaribooBass]

To the moderators I am not sure where this question belongs. So please move if you need to. Thanks.

This is my first time posting on the D/B side of this forum, so thanks for any replies in advance.

I purchased a fretless Jazz bass last year and I really like it. I have played it live and been successful in doing so.

Being self taught has made for a nice way to start, but I have noticed I need to improve my technique/understanding of the instrument.
So it has been presented to me that there is some transferable skills from playing Upright that can be used on an electric.
Proper thumb placement on the neck for each position is one of them.

Do you know of any more that could be helpful for me?
I would appreciate it
Thanks
Clayton.

 

[Don Hergert]

Do you also play double bass?

 

[CaribooBass]

Is this important?


Not at this moment, but it seems to me like it may be my next step.

 

[Don Hergert]

Double bass and electric bass are really different instruments.

If a person is wanting to go far with both instruments, they both deserve separate study of the different postures and techniques that work best for each of them.

There are a lot of people who play both, but the techniques are really not very interchangeable, mostly due to the major size differences between the two instruments.

 

[SteveCS]

...
the techniques are really not very interchangeable
...

I think, having been in DM conversation with the OP, that the question was not so much about actual techniques but more the applicability and relevance of pedegogical principles such as well-trained hand-shape/posture, consistent fingering and playing in position with the whole hand (rather than wiggling fingers around) to achieve secure intonation. In that regard, IME, there is a lot of commonality.

 

[CaribooBass]

Steve you are spot on in what I was asking, or at least trying to.

This seems to be the same issues I dealt with in my competition Archery days.

In other words going from a compound bow to a traditional recurve.
Lots of differences in the both the bows but, the foundation for using both is the same.
Some archers took a long time to understand this. When they did, their F.I.T.A competition improved.

That is why I am asking/seeking new sources so I can learn an other way to understand the instrument.

 

[knirirr]

Having started on fretless electric bass a while ago (I never really played fretted), and more recently switched to DB, I found that the following things were of use for the switch. I don't know if this will be of use or interest, but just in case:

1. Having practiced BG with a hand position like this (from this article). This meant I was used to keeping my hand in a consistent shape to aid intonation, and moving the whole hand around smoothly.
2. Using Simandl fingering (1-2-4) in lower positions on the BG, particularly for 5ths and octaves. This was more comfortable and avoided stretching which could result in going out of tune. Guitar fingering was fine higher up.
3. Having a map in my head so that I could "see" where the notes were without having to look at lines on the fingerboard and using only side dots as a guide as necessary.
4. Being used to listening to correct intonation.

I am far from being a skilled player, but one thing which leads me to think the above helped was playing a tape of my first bass gig (on fretless BG in 1995) to my DB teacher. His remark was that he thought the intonation good, though the choice of notes was questionable on occasion.

 

[BassFalcon]

No. If you knew double bass technique to begin with then the answer would be “a little” but since you have absolutely no point of reference, no. Without that frame of reference anything you learn about double bass will be pointless and abstract. It’s a bit like how riding a bicycle would inform you on riding a motorcycle. They are the same right? Well…yes and no….
If you want to learn double bass, by all means learn it, but understand it’s unique instrument and in no way a bass guitar. Any carryover will be a bonus.

 

[Acoop]

Electric bass, fretted or fretless, works better, using a one finger per fret position. ... And unless you want to spend the rest of your life looking at you fretting hand, it's best, to establish a ridged fretting hand. Once you've done that then you can get down to refining your playing hands. ... Fixating your plucking hand is equally important. ... Think consistency. ... It takes about a year of really refining your hands into these positions until they become trained to just fall into those positions so you no longer have to think about it. ... Study Jaco's and Pino's hands on the fretless to see how effective that fixed position can be. ... Being self-taught is most effective when you're critical of yourself, correcting flaws as they arise. ... Also practicing in front of a mirror helps correct bad habits.

 

[jj.833]

I think that you should split your general question into two separate problems:

1) technique. You can't really use much of double bass technique for fretless. Too different. To move onwards with bass guitar technique (fretted or fretless), I recommend to understand the left hand pivoting, watch with attention Jaco Pastorius Modern electrtic bass, and practise scales, arpeggios and everything else. (Not making fun of you... trying to be helpful in three lines.)

2) musicality. Here, you can learn much from the DB. Watching a double bass player playing bass guitar, often you can hear he sounds quite similar to double bass. Why? His musical thinking, note choices, fingerings etc. come from double bass. Because the double bass is so hard to play, a player needs to mentally hear the notes in advance, and needs to plan his fingerings several notes ahead. You want to be able to find the right pitch without looking. When you can do it, playing fretless bass becomes very easy. How to start with it? I recommend to get a double bass book, preferrably Simandl 1, and play it excersise by excersise. Stick to the prescribed fingerings whenever reasonable. Use 1-2-4 fingering. Learn to play from sheet, without looking at the fingerboard. Don't forget your goal - you don't want to play the fretless as a DB, you want to be able to hear and plan ahead without looking.

 

[SteveCS]

No. If you knew double bass technique to begin with then the answer would be “a little” but since you have absolutely no point of reference, no. Without that frame of reference anything you learn about double bass will be pointless and abstract. It’s a bit like how riding a bicycle would inform you on riding a motorcycle. They are the same right? Well…yes and no….
If you want to learn double bass, by all means learn it, but understand it’s unique instrument and in no way a bass guitar. Any carryover will be a bonus.

IME it is rather more than 'a little' The systemic approaches to hand-shape/posture, fingering, shifting (and planning) and musicianship elements such as dynamics, line-shaping and vibrato are all well established in the DB methods and through the (classical) repertoire. The vast majority of BG method books (our OP is self-teaching) are fundamentally lacking in this regard - just look the number of BG players there are with poor 'technique'. And listen (if your ears can take it!) to how many fretless BG players there are with poor intonation, much of which can be traced directly to poor technique. Obviously the physical challenges are worlds apart, but the concepts and solutions to fundamental problems such as playing fluently and repeatably in tune are totally relevant to fretless bass guitar.

 

[Don Hergert]

I think still, the parallels between archery with a re-curve vs archery with a compound bow, and bass technique between a double bass vs an electric bass, fail when we're talking about size and how objects fit into human hands. Which is really why I asked @CaribooBass "Do you also play double bass?" before diving in...

Double bass is all about technique and musicality similarly to electric bass, but due to the size of a double bass, it's also about learning to play consistently without causing damage to your hands, wrists, arms, shoulders and back. Electric bass in its various forms has for a very large part gotten past that issue.

From that standpoint, I think that going the other direction -- from electric bass to double bass -- is more likely to produce injuries. And there is some suggestion by the OP that eventually going from electric bass to double bass is a possibility. Which again is why the question mentioned above was asked; there was no ill intent involved with that question.

Regarding learning double bass, I'd also add that as someone who has been working on self-teaching himself double bass going on 5 years now, the people on TB/DB have been extremely helpful in mentoring a beginner, but there are some limits to what people can communicate in an online forum. In-person mentors are also extremely helpful (which also includes the possibility of having at least some lessons from a teacher).

Best of luck to @CaribooBass as you progress.

 

[BobDeRosa]

@dhergert is right. You really need to treat DB and fretless as very different instruments and develop the best technique for each. Good intonation is essential on both if you don't want to sound like poopie, but the way you get to good intonation is instrument-specific. Since you're playing the fretless in public without incident, obviously whatever you're doing is working, so unless you experience pain from awkward technique, keep doing what you're doing. But at the same time, work hard on developing your ear so you can make the microtonal adjustments that all fretless players do to maintain good intonation.

 

[CryingBass]

For me learning to pull and release the strings using the meat, vs the tips, was the main and simplest carryover.

 

[sean_on_bass]

It's a valid question. The main thing that i carried to electric from double bass was the 1-2-4 Simandl fingering.

No need to challenge the question, since it is coming from a good place. The OP is trying to understand if outside concepts can be applied to the electric bass. Yet the snobbery shows up regardless, good job ya'll.

 

[notabene]

I have long been amazed at how the mind can quickly "parse" the finger boards of different basses, including fretless electrics. Just as playing different uprights almost magically lets one play "in tune" quickly, (one hopes), thinking about "how" (positions, fingering et al) takes more time than playing musically allows. While learning requires consciousness of "how", playing seems to work best while just doing, not thinking about how.
Mileage apparently may vary.

 

[SteveCS]

...
You really need to treat DB and fretless as very different instruments and develop the best technique for each. Good intonation is essential on both if you don't want to sound like poopie, but the way you get to good intonation is instrument-specific.
...

I guess we might be talking at cross-purposes, to some degree. My experience (which includes supporting my daughter in preparing for her Classical Double Bass degree course at the Royal Academy of Music and having lengthy discussions with her teachers, past and present) is that at the conceptual level, especially where the left hand is concerned, there is plenty in common. Remember the OP is looking for insights into the shared (and time-proven) principles and concepts for achieving good intonation, not to become the next NHOP or Giovanni Bottesini. Notwithstanding the obvious mechanical /physical differences between the instruments such common principles and concepts do exist, and a good grasp of those can, IME, be highly beneficial to the fretless bass guitar player, even if he ends up never getting close to an actual string bass.

 

[Wasnex]

I started on viola, transitioned to double bass (DB), and eventually picked up bass guitar (BG).

All instruments benefit from good form...but IMHO the techniques should be significantly tailored to your specific physiology and the requirements of each instrument. Good hand shape is important, but you don't use the same handshapes on DB and BG.

When I started learning BG I simply recycled and adapted what I already had learned from playing DB. My formal DB training was based on Simandl technique. So I used 1,2,4 for fingering and the 3rd finger helps the pinkie. With Simandl, the 3rd finger does not function independently until you get up into thumb position, where you stop using the pinkie.

The plucking technique I initially used on BG involved using straight fingers and anchoring the thumb on a string or the side of a pickup. This is an adaption of the primary plucking technique I use with DB to this day.

Over the years the techniques I used on DB and BG became more an more differentiated. My primary plucking technique on BG now uses arched fingers and floating thumb.

Early in my professional career, it became more and more apparent that I would benefit from using one finger per fret (OFPF) on BG. So I started developing a new fingering system. Now I use OFPF most of the time on BG, although I occasionally revert to Simandl or a hybrid fingering system.

I also transitioned from 4-string to 5-string BG for a few years. Then I transitioned to 6-string. A Yamaha TRB6P has been my #1 BG since about 1995. 4-string players must play up and down the neck more (more shifting). 6-string players can play across the strings. This results in a different strategy to navigate the fretboard. So not only are my techniques for DB and BG different, I also now use a drastically different fingering and shifting system on each instrument.

When I first started, I thought of DB and BG as closely related/similar. Now I think of them as very different instruments.

Rather than going through such a transition and figuring things out for yourself, you should be better off learning good technique and a good fingering system from someone who specializes on the instrument you want to play. If you don't have any interest in learning to play DB, then don't study or try to adapt DB techniques to BG. Instead, study and learn proper BG technique.

From what I have seen, most of the best players tend to specialize on one instrument or the other. So finding one person who can teach you well on both DB and BG may be challenging.

On top of that, each person who masters an instrument tends to develop their own unique approach to playing. So each teacher will have different ideas on how to best play. As a student you generally learn a lot of different approaches. Then, as you develop, you eventually discard some ideas, keep and refine some ideas, and develop some new ideas of your own. Part of the process is sampling a wide variety of approaches to figure out what works best for you.

 

[Sam Sherry]

Because the double bass is so hard to play

What?
What ???

The double bass is as easy as you let it be.

"90% of this game is mental, the other half is physical." -- Yogi Berra

 

[BobDeRosa]

I guess we might be talking at cross-purposes, to some degree. My experience (which includes supporting my daughter in preparing for her Classical Double Bass degree course at the Royal Academy of Music and having lengthy discussions with her teachers, past and present) is that at the conceptual level, especially where the left hand is concerned, there is plenty in common. Remember the OP is looking for insights into the shared (and time-proven) principles and concepts for achieving good intonation, not to become the next NHOP or Giovanni Bottesini. Notwithstanding the obvious mechanical /physical differences between the instruments such common principles and concepts do exist, and a good grasp of those can, IME, be highly beneficial to the fretless bass guitar player, even if he ends up never getting close to an actual string bass.

I disagree, but that's what TB is all about. I hope the OP extracts the best from both of us. Cheers!