Double Bass Upright technique on an electric fret less.

[brianrost]

When I started playing DB I had years of experience playing fretless BG. I played exactly one gig on DB before calling a teacher I knew and asking for lessons.

So my short answer is no, playing fretless BG is not a way to prepare for playing DB.

 

[SteveCS]

When I started playing DB I had years of experience playing fretless BG. I played exactly one gig on DB before calling a teacher I knew and asking for lessons.

So my short answer is no, playing fretless BG is not a way to prepare for playing DB.

That wasn't the question, Brian. It was more about the transferability (or otherwise) of some of the concepts and principles from the establshed DB methods to certain aspects of early-days orientation on fretless bass guitar. That's it. No more and no less.

And yes, nobody in their right mind takes the stand with a double-bass and no tuition.

 

[longfinger]

Is this important?


Not at this moment, but it seems to me like it may be my next step.

Likely a good idea to invest in a limited series of private lessons with a fretless bass guitarist, or doubler on upright and electric bass. Such a person could examine what you are actually currently doing when you play your instrument and make recommendations that apply directly to you. If it goes well, continue lessons.

Main thing is you need to play in tune, with great time, and have a good sound.

The technique follows that.

Remember, ergonomics, is from the human body out... not instrument in. The basic principles apply if we are playing music instruments, typing at a computer, or doing gardening.

 

[brianrost]

That wasn't the question, Brian. It was more about the transferability (or otherwise) of some of the concepts and principles from the establshed DB methods to certain aspects of early-days orientation on fretless bass guitar.

Certain aspects, position playing and working on your ear for intonation is about it. Again from personal experience. The funny thing is that was what made my transition to fretless BG so easy was I had already learned psoition playing on the fretted BG. It's in pretty much bass method book ever written

 

[BassFalcon]

It's a valid question. The main thing that i carried to electric from double bass was the 1-2-4 Simandl fingering.

No need to challenge the question, since it is coming from a good place. The OP is trying to understand if outside concepts can be applied to the electric bass. Yet the snobbery shows up regardless, good job ya'll.

Sure it’s a valid question. And “no” is a valid answer since this is all opinion based. Not giving the OP the answer he wants is not snobbery. I haven’t seen any snobbery here, just respectful disagreement. Everyone with a “no” answer has had legitimate reasons to back up their opinion, what’s snobbish about that? This is about as civil and respectful as online debate gets.

 

[Matthew_84]

Electric bass, fretted or fretless, works better, using a one finger per fret position. ... And unless you want to spend the rest of your life looking at you fretting hand, it's best, to establish a ridged fretting hand.

Maybe I’m not interpreting this comment correctly, but my experience is different. Of course, everyone’s hands are different but here’s my experience…

I started on bass guitar, and focused on fretless. Even with being a pretty big guy (6’3” with large hands) I could not keep a rigid fretting hand and play one finger per fret in the lower positions comfortably. I needed to use pivots and stretches (especially with octaves and fifths) that truthfully were not the most comfortable for me (especially if I was playing a whole song in half-position for example). I also found my intonation wasn’t great with pivots and these stretches. I kind of needed to stare at my hand to see where my fingers were fretting so I could fret in tune instantly, without adjustment.

That changed a LOT once I went to a 1-2-3+4 fretting technique in the lower positions. I could then keep a rigid fretting hand that didn’t need to rely on pivots and stretches. It required a bit more shifting of course, but I still found it easier to play in tune instantly with shifting than the pivots/stretching I needed to do with one finger per fret.

On my 34” fretless bass (and fretted for that matter since I liked keeping my technique the same between the two), I would go to one finger per fret once my index finger reached the D on the G string (or the 7th “fret”). That is where I could fret all four semitones at once comfortably. (*)

But as I mentioned above, everyone’s hands are different.

(*) Edit to clarify: on fretless bass guitar I don’t necessarily fret all semitones at once like I do on my EUB when playing with my pinky, but I used that as a test to determine where I could keep a rigid fretting hand position and play one finger per fret comfortably. If I needed to stretch to fret all four semitones at once (and to play each of them in tune), then I needed to stretch/pivot and thus, couldn’t maintain a rigid fretting hand.

 

[damonsmith]

In the Bay Area, I got to do some projects with Michael Mannring, one of the greatest fretless players of all time. While the technique is different, he said he practiced double bass etudes with an E-bow for intonation.
I would recommend this, but one finger per "fret".

 

[CaseyVancouver]

Hey @CaribooBass!

When I play fretless I use upright fingering to the mid harmonic (12th fret).
So that is 1,2,4. At the mid harmonic and higher I finger 1,2,3,4.
The idea is to get the intonation close as possible.

When you are in the lower mainland, and the stars align,
you are welcome to drop by and we can go over things.
You might also get a kick out of some of my basses.

 

[Caro]

In response to OP's question "Do you know of any more that can be helpful for me?". About proper thumb placement on the neck I would add that you want a nice open and rounded shape with your hand, fingers and thumb. With your left hand, lightly grab your right forearm just above its wrist. Have all your left hand fingers (1234) and thumb encircled around the right forearm. Now take your left hand off of your right forearm, keeping the shape of the left hand. This is the open and rounded shape you want with your fingers and thumb on the bass's fingerboard and neck. The palm of your hand should also have an open and rounded shape. This hand shape allows you to play with the least amount of tension and increases facility. It allows you to have your fingers nicely arched, which helps keep the fingertips close to the strings. It allows the 4th finger to play with strength and facility. With the right hand, if you're alternating 1st and 2nd fingers, work on getting evenness of tone. The same amount of fingertip should be used for 1st and 2nd. This could involve adjusting the angle of your hand to the string. If your just using your 1st finger you can use the side of your finger to get a fuller tone. Don't collapse the first joint of your fingers. This will give a good firm attack to the fingerstroke. Good hard calluses will help to make a clear and full tone. Play in tune. Open strings and harmonics help with this. Practice shifting from one position to another with ease and accuracy. Play scales and arpeggios. I don't play electric bass but hopefully these suggestions will help. Good luck.

 

[Paul New]

Having started on fretless electric bass a while ago (I never really played fretted), and more recently switched to DB, I found that the following things were of use for the switch. I don't know if this will be of use or interest, but just in case:

1. Having practiced BG with a hand position like this (from this article). This meant I was used to keeping my hand in a consistent shape to aid intonation, and moving the whole hand around smoothly.
2. Using Simandl fingering (1-2-4) in lower positions on the BG, particularly for 5ths and octaves. This was more comfortable and avoided stretching which could result in going out of tune. Guitar fingering was fine higher up.
3. Having a map in my head so that I could "see" where the notes were without having to look at lines on the fingerboard and using only side dots as a guide as necessary.
4. Being used to listening to correct intonation.

I am far from being a skilled player, but one thing which leads me to think the above helped was playing a tape of my first bass gig (on fretless BG in 1995) to my DB teacher. His remark was that he thought the intonation good, though the choice of notes was questionable on occasion.

I would not take the advice regarding electric bass from that article as gospel. A lot of BG players do not anchor the thumb on a pickup. I know I don’t. Also, they show the instrument positioned awfully low. Do not contort your left hand and wrist like the girl shown sitting.

 

[knirirr]

I would not take the advice regarding electric bass from that article as gospel. A lot of BG players do not anchor the thumb on a pickup. I know I don’t. Also, they show the instrument positioned awfully low. Do not contort your left hand and wrist like the girl shown sitting.

I was only using it for the one image, but thought I ought to cite my source.
Where’s your right thumb? Mine usually ends up on the body, further towards the neck than the neck (jazz) pickup, when plucking the E. It then moves to the string adjacent to the plucked one.

 

[Paul New]

I was only using it for the one image, but thought I ought to cite my source.
Where’s your right thumb? Mine usually ends up on the body, further towards the neck than the neck (jazz) pickup, when plucking the E. It then moves to the string adjacent to the plucked one.

i float my thumb, and don’t find it neccessary to use it for leverage at all.

 

[Lo-E]

BG is my principal instrument and I’ve played fretless for as many years as I’ve played fretted; around 38 years. I also play DB and, while I don’t have anywhere near the same facility on it, I did study with good teachers and learned good habits and technique.

From my perspective, the OP’s question is actually two questions wrapped into one. The reason I see it this way is that, from a technique standpoint, there’s very little difference between fretted BG and Fretless BG. Subtleties? Yes, absolutely, but the core techniques that are considered “standard” and “good” for BG are the same regardless of whether or not one’s BG has frets. This is certainly the case for me as my technique on fretless and fretted is almost identical with only tiny, barely discernible differences.

With this in mind, I now read that OP’s question in two parts: Are there DB techniques and practices that carry over usefully to BG and are there DB techniques and practices that carry over usefully to fretless, specifically. The reason my brain needs to break the question into two parts is because, for me, the two answers aren’t quite the same.

Regarding the first part, I believe there’s a lot of left hand DB technique that can be very useful for BG. @Caro’s advice regarding a comfortable, rounded, relaxed hand shape is not only useful for BG, but for a lot of string instruments. I’ll add that keeping the left hand thumb more-or less behind the middle finger is a comfortable rule to follow, albeit not a really strict rule.

My first two BG teachers were doublers. I don’t know which instrument each started on, but they each had studied DB at university and held music degrees and they each had very impressive facility on both BG and DB. Both of these teachers (Ken Freeman and Kim Clarke if anyone’s interested) recommended that I get comfortable with both Simandl (1-2-4) fingering and one-finger-per-fret fingering. Both teachers suggested I get comfortable with both shifts and pivots and recommended learning the same passages using one, then the other so I was facile enough to choose easily. Both teachers suggested that these techniques were useful for both fretted and fretless. I followed their advice and I believe it was enormously helpful in my development as a player. At that point I had not yet started playing DB. I still use both fingerings extensively, determined by the nature of what I’m playing and I still feel that learning DB fingering was very beneficial to me.

For me, there’s little that carries over from the right hand. I do occasionally use a DB-similar pizzicato technique on BG but I use several other right hand techniques much more often.

As for the second question, there are several practices that I feel carry over pretty well to fretless, specifically. One is the use of open strings to help keep intonation under control. Another is developing a good vibrato, which is very important to having a good tone on fretless (and which can work against your development of good intonation - it’s a balancing act!).

In general, most of the DB exercises that focus on intonation are great exercises for fretless BG. Shifts, drones, arpeggios, giant shifts (also charmingly referred to as “vomits”) will build your ear and your accuracy and absolutely carry over from DB to fretless BG.

Other things are sort of a mixed bag; Simandl technique tends to finger scales working across the neck at first and then up the G string. While that’s useful to know how to do and helps to learn the neck, the BG lends itself to position playing much more easily (playing across the neck) so the Simandl fingerings don’t really carry over that often , IMO.

Gosh…. That turned into a novel. Sorry. I’ll shut up now. I hope some of it was helpful.