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Double Bass Upton Bass

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#141
Keyser Soze said:
My only "anger" -- your word; not mine -- comes from intuting that Upton, in their transition from bass-importer to bass manufacturer, have shot themselvese inthe footy and, subequently, left bass players in the lurch.
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I see, you have intuited this. Time will tell.
 
#142
Eric Swanson said:
...I have no window into or knowledge of the firm's finances or reserves, but think about this when you are fuming...

Now, only a fool would count somebody else's money, so I am not trying to do that...

At this point their cash flow (unless financed by a line of credit, angel investor, etc.) is probably running on fumes, at best, driven only by (relatively) small deposit fees, the occasional setup/repair work, and incidental sales. Meanwhile, the whole production crew is working on incomplete basses, with little money coming in. Let's all hope, for their sake, that this is being financed with equity (money earmarked for reinvestment)...

So, if they are financing this current period, either prices may need to increase or volume, or both, to pay for the money being spent now. If this period is being paid for from equity, they are only losing the investment value (future value) of that money in other investments. It could be that this is the best gamble with that cash and it will pay off handsomely!


and so on...
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A very fair-minded, thoughtful, objective, and reasonable analysis given the assumptions. The assumptions, however, are just that-- assumptions. By your own admission, you have assumed facts not in evidence but, even more importantly, the analysis is not, and at this point, cannot, be based on facts unknown to you. I am not being critical of you. You were very fair to point out that your post was based on your guesses. I have never made any secret of the fact that Gary Upton and I have been friends for years. (Okay, here come the flame-throwers and shill-accusers-- but no, I have NO financial interest in Upton Bass, am not on the payroll, and do not receive compensation in goods and/or services). Little birdies tell me a great deal. My message is that, with regard to the health of their operation-- relax! You can bet that Gary and company have thought long and hard about all of this and have planned this over an extended period. I will say no more on that subject. Will they raise prices in the future? Perhaps. Then again, there is the impending introduction of the poplar bass explicitly designed to keep their products within reach of those with a lesser budget.
 
#143
Growing too quickly has killed an awful lot of small businesses -- it's a classic way to go. Especially niche market businesses that depend critically on reputation and product quality. Is this happening to UB? I haven't got a clue. As far as the realities of business, though, what's true is true and in that way of looking at things UB's a business like any other.

I've only done a teensy bit of dealing with UB and I don't know squat about the realities of their particular business, but as a DB player I really like their ambition and what they're trying to achieve. I wish them the best. It's not without risk, though, and ironically success and how it's managed is a big one.
 
#144
I wish Upton the best as well, and am really looking forward to seeing the new models. And kudos to Upton for tackling an ambitious venture. Also, what's the deal with poplar - is this a preferred tonewood for tops than spruce?

I also wish that Ken Smith didn't delete his posts before he took his marbles home. It seems to me Ken Smith stated in no uncertain terms that a USA built laminate double bass would not be profitable. Or something like that. But the original post doesn't seem to be around any longer as a record.
 
#146
jrlynch said:
i do hope that someone from upton posts something here shortly addressing the concern over deposit refunds and delivery issues, just to clear the air a bit, but it is staggeringly unfair to condemn upton based upon assumptions and "intuition" ...

jeff.
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As I understand it, Gary has vowed NOT to post here. FWIW, I agree with him. To enter the fray, more often than not, serves to diminish him. I suggest that customers with concerns take them directly to him. While it is fun to sit around and chat here, as a group, we are merely speculating, etc. The folks at Upton are living it. I agree completely that proper, honest, and forthright communication with customers is of paramount importance.
 
#147
Bass said:
...It seems to me Ken Smith stated in no uncertain terms that a USA built laminate double bass would not be profitable...
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Yep, he did, indeed, say that. To be fair, we'll have to wait a bit to see if this all works for Upton but if I were a betting man... ;)
 
#148
drurb said:
As I understand it, Gary has vowed NOT to post here. FWIW, I agree with him. To enter the fray, more often than not, serves to diminish him. I suggest that customers with concerns take them directly to him. While it is fun to sit around and chat here, as a group, we are merely speculating, etc.
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Well spoken, with the caveat that it's the speculation by non-customers which concerns me more here. Customers with actual experince with the company are encouraged to share it as long as they do so respectfully.

I'd like to take this moment to remind everyone that there is a lot of speculation in this thread on both sides of the fence which is unsubstantiated. Use your critical thinking abilities to figure out what you believe is true. And remember, when a commercial user doesn't post about their own products here at TB, it's usually a matter of discretion rather than obfuscation: there are so many restrictions on what any commercial user can and cannot say about their products that it's often best for them to refrain from posting altogether. When this is the case, remember that there are no restrictions on PM and email with these memebrs should you wish to contact them off the board.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to say that while this thread has a few obnoxious/borderline hostile posts in it, I'm glad that we have been able to keep it open to reflect both positive and not so positive experiences from those here who have dealt directly with the company in question. This is the function of this board. If it were truly a "shill board for company X", then no negative postings about company x would be allowed here....and this is clearly not the case. After this point, posts by members who have no actual experience with the subject of this thread will be watched very closely - we don't need pot stirring based on speculation, especially when the proof is clearly only going to tasted in the forthcoming pudding. Only time will tell...let's let time do its job.
 
#149
Eric Swanson said:
Good thoughts. I have tried to edit the vapors out of my previous posts. No more "speculative finance"...
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I am sorry to see that you pulled your speculative post. It contained perfectly good financial thoughts and principles and you were careful to note that you were guessing as to what could be happening. I found it instructive but, hey, you're the author so it was your call.
 
#150
Bass said:
I wish Upton the best as well, and am really looking forward to seeing the new models. And kudos to Upton for tackling an ambitious venture. Also, what's the deal with poplar - is this a preferred tonewood for tops than spruce?

I also wish that Ken Smith didn't delete his posts before he took his marbles home. It seems to me Ken Smith stated in no uncertain terms that a USA built laminate double bass would not be profitable. Or something like that. But the original post doesn't seem to be around any longer as a record.
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Do you have a direct question for me?

The last time I posted on this Thread, the Mods deleted my Posts and gave me more demerits for violating the commercial used policy. The Dunce Cap is getting heavy on my head.

I will gladly answer any questions you have for me directly but the Mods might delete my posts if they think it is in any way derogatory towards Upton. This has happened in the past and was one of the reasons why I left and was banned for some time.

I think in the other thread last year I was referring to a company like Englehart which I believe bought out Kay. The molds and tooling were in place so this was old money and a near 'turn key' type changeover. I spoke actually with Englehart and learned that they actually 'buy' their laminate blanks and do not actually press their own plywood. Perhaps this process of sub-contracting is one of the bugs the Upton has to work out. A custom Plywood mfg. also has to get their end right before the product is shippable not to mention fitting in a new customer (Upton) in to the mix IF this is part of their procedure.

I have no clue how they are doing this and really do not at all wish them any bad will. I was mainly skeptical on how they would pull this off from scratch and be able to compete with Romanian and Chinese prices and still stay in business.

I too would like to see more American manufacturing going on in this country. If Upton gets the bugs worked out, I will applaud them along with the rest of the crowd. It just didn't seem feasible the way it was presented in that Thread last year.

On the Poplar question, I don't know which parts are Poplar on the Upton's except that with Arnold's laminate shells from Germany they have Poplar cores. I think Maple caps the Back and Spruce caps the Top. For that, you will have to confirm with Arnold. Also, many old Italian Basses and some Cellos were built with 'other than maple' woods for the Back and Ribs. This was due to cost and availability I believe. Mainly Poplar but we have seen Willow and Walnut as well. The local Italian Maple known as Oppio is soft, knotty and not very well figured. Almost all the wood you see on Italian instruments were imported from other parts of Europe and even USA as we have seen American maple on Italian instruments.

MODS? Please do not delete my posts here. I am not bashing. Ok?
 
#151
Actually, I did speak to Gary Upton about this. As it turns out, he investigated the possibility of having several custom plywood manufacturers make his laminated pieces. He even went so far as to pay for those companies to do trial production runs. In the end, none of them met his expectations or standards, especially with regard to the arching that he desired. So, he decided to manufacture his own laminated pieces from raw stock. Thus, even Upton's laminates are completely crafted in Connecticut.
 
#152
My experience with mis-communication and delay was earlier this year (before the local production changes).

I was simply told my bass was awaiting strings (back-ordered).
This upset me as there was another set of strings in the total order that were not back-ordered. I would have gladly had the bass set up with the others to save time. And also, that It's strange that you couldn't get a set of strings knowing you had a 12 week+ lead time.

I was told a week later that these basses shouldn't be rushed and I should be patient.

Then I was put off another week due to missing a shipping date and having to wait for the next (they don't ship every day).


I'm not looking to bash Upton, just stating another actual experience. The bass plays nice. The soundpost needed adjustment after I received it. It's got a little bit of a 'wolf' type thing around low 'G', but plays very evenly otherwise. Out of four string sets (Spiro Weichs/Mittels, Obligatos, and Evah Pirazzis) the Evah's give the best arco and pizz sound (loudest & most even across all strings also).
 
#153
KSB - Ken Smith said:
Do you have a direct question for me?...
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Well, yeah! I guess I was asking what you wrote previously. Somehow, this thread reminded me of the previous thread which I couldn't find.

KSB - Ken Smith said:
I was mainly sceptable on how they would pull this off from scratch and be able to compete with Romanian and Chinese prices and still stay in business....It just didn't seem feasible the way it was presented in that Thread last year...
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Thanks, that's what I thought you said. But the above summary isn't near so interesting as the original thread.

Also, thanks for touching on the "poplar" question. So poplar is a common laminate core, typically capped by maple or spruce? And the choice of wood tends to be a function of cost, availability, aesthetics, and hardness? Fascinating!

Gee whiz, fabricating the plywood itself is a pretty tall order. I find Upton's venture really exciting, and I'm sure they'll find a great deal of pride in the end product. I understand Art's bass shipped out this week, so hopefully some photo's will be available next week.
 
#154
Let me clarify...

On the Poplar origin I referenced its use in Italy stemming back a few centuries. I believe it was originally chosen by cost and availability for the larger and what was considered then 'less important' instruments. The Violin was the main focus so it got the best wood usually.

On the laminate core, this is what I believe Arnold is doing with the New Standards. I don't know nor can I comment exactly what Upton is doing.

Centuries later, most old Italian Basses sound great and many have Poplar for Backs and Ribs. It is the sound we hear centuries later that has brought Poplar back to the bench. I have not seen much use of Poplar anywhere else except Italy unless someone was trying to imitate an Italian model. The regions near France and Germany as well as the Eastern countries of Austria, Bohemia, Hungary and Romania have been 'swimming' in Maple for centuries. Very little is used for Backs there other than Maple.

It is the Old Italian sound that has influenced the use of Poplar once again in my opinion. Also, it does happen to sound good.
 
#156
Chris Fitzgerald said:
Well spoken, with the caveat that it's the speculation by non-customers which concerns me more here. Customers with actual experince with the company are encouraged to share it as long as they do so respectfully...
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While I don't have anything to speculate on, I have bought a hybrid bass from Upton. My experiences have all been very positive. The bass is quite nice, especially for the price, and in the year and a half I've had it, it has turned out to be everything I could ask for and more. The bass was shipped in a reasonably timely manor, it was packed to withstand the rigors of motor freight transport, and it arrived with no issues whatsoever. My dealings with Upton Bass have all been good, and I have always been treated very fairly. I have also found the staff to be very courteous, knowledgeable and helpful.
 
#157
Greetings all:

I am a guitarist and bass hacker with a talented 13 yo son who will be picking up his Upton Hybrid (US) tomorrow (Sat Nov 17).

Although I want to avoid aggrevating any here before I have even finished my first post, I have to say that I find most of the criticism here understandable perhaps but not entirely justifed.

We ordered our bass in June. I don't remember the date, nor does it matter to me. Our target date was early September but Gary never promised this to me at all. If you guys were ording IPODS or something, I guess I could understand your frustration more, but this is an entirely hand crafted instrument made in our fine State of CT, where most craftsmanship went the way of horse and buggy. We don't even make screwdrivers anymore in the "Hardware City" (New Britain). Instead, Stanley buys and sells other companies and makes it's tools at "Shen Industries" (joke- no Dis to Shen intended).

I also noted a lot of comments about production issues that didn't seem to be coming from instrument makers. I would never try to second guess Upton's production efficiencies or methods. I will speculate, however, that if Gary's goal was to get rich without working hard, he probably would have found something else to do.

I have custom ordered several guitars over my lifetime, from Fender and Gibson, all of which were basically more mass-produced and simply made than Upton basses and the shortest time I ever waited was about 6 months. This from companies with hundreds, if not thousands of employees. As you might Know if you dabble in guitar, both companies turn out guitars than range (randomly) in quality from amazing to total crap.

Along the way, and without me bugging him much, Gary sent us pictures of our bass being assembled and a piece of his laminate, which as stated by others here, looks marvelous to my untrained but-eager-to-learn eye.

Anyhow, as I thought some would be interested, I will post our impressions of the new hybrid after my son and his teacher get acquainted with it.

BTW, I have no relationship with anyone at UB.
 
#160
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