Double Bass Upton Bass

[chuck1073]

I was just down at the workshop on Saturday, as some of you already know.

I can totally relate to anyones impatience when it comes to delivery times on the new basses but...trust me...these guys are working their tails off to get these basses done.

If the the Upton guys are guilty of anything it's putting out a quality product and taking a little longer than expected to do it. The "it took too long" would be forgotten much sooner than the "this bass sucks". Remember this is a pretty new venture as far as the US production goes. There's an S-load of work that goes into making a number of these beasts.

I've seen the production...the instruments are coming out beautifully. Not to mention that the wood smell in the shop is
excellent.

And...for what it's worth...I think Eric skipped lunch on Saturday to make basses.

Patience Gentlemen. Good work takes time.

 

[jrlynch]

be that as it may, i do think it is fundamentally unfair, or somewhat unreasonable, to create an agreement with fixed demands of the customer (for payment/deposit), yet have an undefined delivery date, with no penalties for blowing the schedule. as i've said before, i'm delighted that my bass arrived *early*, but it strikes me that you can chose to be a bespoke maker and simply craft things to order, and demand whatever terms you'd like, or you can try to produce in some volume and run the shop like a "real business" ... and perhaps make some real money. i do hope the upton folks do something to address this problem shortly, because i honestly want them to succeed.

jeff.

 

[Gufenov]

FWIW, I recently had the opportunity to speak by telephone with Gary Upton. He plainly stated that they were a little overwhelmed at the number of orders they've received. Additionally, they are experiencing space issues, as their retail business is in a different location from their assembly business. Gary is stretched pretty thin trying to cover both facilities while looking for a place to combine them. He's faced with an age-old dilema; how to keep his customers happy while making decisions that keep his business healthy so he can make his customers happy in the long term...

I see one of two things happening. 1) The "newness" of Gary's product will begin to wear off and the rush of orders will slow to a more manageable level, or 2) The orders will continue to pour in as the word spreads in the bass community, and Gary will grow the business to accomodate.

I'm convinced he's doing his best to get through the growing pains.

 

[Eric Swanson]

...My only real problem with Upton to date, which is kind of a big one, my bass was SUPPOSED to be done 2 weeks ago (that being the 12 week mark, even though when I ordered they said it would likely be 10 weeks...), and I just got an update on my bass, and they pretty much haven't even started building it. You can probably imagine my frustration by this point. I hate waiting, and I think it was dishonest of them to qoute me that time. Am I to believe they did not know they'd be in the middle of a transition period? I understand that's why it's taking longer, but I think it's very dishonest to not inform your customers. I'm positive Im not the only one in this boat, and I think we should receive some kind of compensation...

As I stated before, I eagerly await my bass, and I do have confidence that they will do a good job on it, but by this point my confidence in them has gone down, I have to be completely honest.

I understand your frustration. While I haven't had your experience (I bought my Upton used, off the rack), I may be able to be of service with another perspective.

Yes, being late is not good business. Yes, poor communication is not good marketing. Yes, it is maddening to be punished repeatedly for choosing to be a firm's customer.Yes, it can seem a bit like the Emperor's new clothes when one looks solely at current performance.

Here are a few thoughts:

- Growing pains are part of expanding a business. Upton is trying something ambitious, with countless new variables. While none of us signed on for their learning experience, it makes me feel better about myself and the situation to try practicing understanding, patience, and compassion. It helps me to think about how grateful I am for other things.

- Having worked with them slightly, I doubt that they are trying to be duplicitous.

- Visionaries, entrepreneurs, and craftspeople are rarely effective managers, right out of the box. This is a separate skill set. It has taken me years to become an effective manager, after working as a craftsperson and business owner (I actually had to break down and go to school for it, that's how bad I was!) They may have opportunities for growth in this area.

- When stressed for an extended period, even for stellar workers, actual performance quality goes down. The harder one works, the less one accomplishes. Fatigue sets in.

- One of the great challenges of small business is to separate the firm's performance from the participants' identities and self esteem. Thinking about the company's strengths and weaknesses without taking it personally. In the midst of crisis, in a closely-held company with so much invested, it is virtually impossible for one to take this perspective. The company's real test, and opportunity for growth, will be what they learn from this painful period...how objective and fearless they can be in their self-appraisal.

 

[Fuzzball59]

You make some excellent points Eric. The way your analysis combines the cold hard facts of production and workflow with the intangible human aspects of pride, dedication and artistry is perfect for this particular situation. I mean their end product is not a mass produced widget, it's a musical instrument with which the future owner may develop an intense life long emotional attachment and into which may be poured the very artistic essence of his/her soul. A special case I think.

 

[Sam Sherry]

Words to live by, Eric. Your highly-articulate reminder of The Facts Life In Self-Employment is my learning at TB/DB today for sure.

Gotta work. BEST, SAM

 

[BEEF]

Yes, it seems that all of that is going on, but I feel for Blacksheep and customers in his position.

The 'growing pains' are being passed down to the customer.


I've been is sales for the last 18yrs. The majority of my clients were obtained through a simple selling point being "We do what we say we do.". People really love that, above MANY other enticing sales pitches. As long as you back it up.

It's expected to get something more than an apology when this doesn't happen. I'd be embarrassed to explain any specific internal problems to my clients.

 

[bankerwithabass]

I already posted a reply to this thread but when I did, it was prior to knowing the real reason why there was a delay in production.

I echo the same thoughts as the some of the one's above that it is unfair for Upton to promise a time frame, not make the the time frame, but even far worse, not tell the truth about why there was a delay.

I walked from mine. And now I'm even more glad I did. When I find out the delays were not due to the vague reason I was given which was: "it just takes a long time to make a hand made bass".

The real reason as we all know now is the change in production to the US. Now I would not want to second quess how they planned it and I will not criticize the guys in the treanches trying their level best to get the basses out, but I will criticize the lack of honesty on managements part to not come clean with it's customers when it was very clear the delays were coming. I did'nt even hear what the problems were from Upton. I heard it on this formum.

Now I know Upton has a great reputation by a lot of folks, but I think that a change in a product a big as the change of facility where the blanks are produced changes that dynamic of reputation. How are these things going to sound and hold up in the long run. Best case they will be great long lasting basses. Worst case they could either not sound as good in the long run or not hold up at all or both. Or they may have some glitches and issues that may effect the first production runs, until they get the kinks worked out. I hope for Upton and all those who are getting one now that it turns out great for them. For me, I feel that I should have been given a choice, and not kept in the dark. When I ordered it, I just didn't order a bass, I ordered a long standing process. When that changed as drastically as it did then as far as I'm concerned the reputation is in question, particulary when I am kept in the dark.

It's not fair to the customer to have not planned it better or at least not being able to at least plan the communication peace better is the worst part of it. I think customers will be much more forgiving in a given situation as long as they feel that they are being treated in an honest fashion.

Ok, now that I got that off my chest, I am very happy now that I am three weeks into the breakin period of a new, fully carved instrument. It's not American made but a fairly high quality Chinese bass set up by a local luthier. It has opened up a lot, is easy to play, sort of, but that's more me than the bass. I get local service if I have any problems and so I am ready to move on from this thread.

 

[BPeder]

I wonder, did all of us who have Upton Basses on order since about mid-June get the newsletter that explained why basses are being delayed? Some might have fallen through the cracks. There is a thread authored by FuzzBall59 on this forum where you can view the newsletter if you think you might have missed it. I'll admit to being a little anxious too but I can only hope that as the Upton folks said, the wait will be well worth while.

If I can offer some hope on that score to my fellow sufferers, I will. My Hybrid was ordered July 13th. I too, was under the impression that this was going to be a Europe shell and about 10-12 weeks in production, until I got the newsletter. My buddy Chuck1073 was in the shop just last Saturday and found Eric fitting the neck joint on my bass. He said the wood looks really great, just like Upton said it would. The varnish goes on this week and I'm hoping that it ships Tuesday the 20th. It has to FedEx from CT to MN so if I can pick up on Friday the 23rd, that's 19 weeks on the nose. I saw a post from Gary Upton where he states that production is beginning to flow better everyday and that new orders will not take as long as some of these initial orders that are the first ones out of the chute in the new US made batches. Be patient my brothers and sisters, good things come to those who wait.

Finally, I would like to write a brief review of something Upton did ship to me, a scrap of wood from my instrument's back. It is 3 3/4 x 2 7/8 inches, and 5/16 inches thick. It is a four layer plywood laminate with a veneer of maple on the top that is to DIE for. The grain and flame on this wood scrap is really nice, glowing in any light I hold it up to, and it doesn't even have any varnish on it yet. And, this little piece was trimmed away. What will the wood they left in look like? I can't imagine what this bass will look like in its varnish under stage lighting... On the down side, it has lousy tone and no sustain and it gives me slivers when I play it pizz, but if the figuring in that little piece of wood is any indication of the overall beauty of the finished bass, then they were not kidding when they said that the new US basses were going to be even nicer due to the greater selection of woods here in the states. Again, to all y'all that are waiting, I think we are in for a happy day when our basses finally arrive. Hang in there!

 

[jisbass]

I don't have direct experience with upton, but I tried their laminate bass that my friend got, and I saw him through the process of ordering and receiving. That was before the craziness, so it was smooth.

Anyway, I think it would have been a better business move to keep the laminates (maybe even the hybrids) coming from Europe, and just make the hybrid and the professor in the US. I don't know how much you can improve on the laminates by making it in-house. They should keep the laminates in the entry-level market (especially the price), and improve on the professor as their flagship, making it from scratch. That's how many businesses/companies do things. But who am I to consult someone's business. I have no credentials in that field. just a thought.

 

[drurb]

I don't have direct experience with upton, but I tried their laminate bass that my friend got, and I saw him through the process of ordering and receiving. That was before the craziness, so it was smooth.

Anyway, I think it would have been a better business move to keep the laminates (maybe even the hybrids) coming from Europe, and just make the hybrid and the professor in the US. I don't know how much you can improve on the laminates by making it in-house. They should keep the laminates in the entry-level market (especially the price), and improve on the professor as their flagship, making it from scratch. That's how many businesses/companies do things. But who am I to consult someone's business. I have no credentials in that field. just a thought.

How much can they improve the laminates by building them in-house? From what I've seen (but not yet heard), by a substantial margin! In addition, as Upton has posted here, there are new models coming. Believe me, these guys have considered all the angles. There's no way they would have undertaken all of this if it didn't make both good business sense and result in a better product.

 

[BPeder]

In addition, as Upton has posted here, there are new models coming.

Yeah, "a little bird" recently told me about the Poplar Upton that would start at 'prox $1,750.00 Now if you can get an Upton Bass with their famous set-up and all the premium parts for that kind of money you are in entry level heaven! Also, be on the lookout for a cat named ScreamKingArt to be posting his review soon of his new "Tiger Top" Upton Laminate. That will be a seriously beautiful bass...

 

[jisbass]

My thought came as a response to their overwelming workload at this moment. I suppose you can always improve on something if you have complete control of production, but I'm just concerned whether they will ever catch up to the demands. Maybe they need to expand their staff or the customers will have to accept that it takes a long time to get an upton bass, as this is true of most custom handmade instruments. People wait years to get certain custom made guitars, and even bows. But if it's worth it, it's worth it.

I do feel bad for the people who ordered not knowing it would take this long, but upton probably didn't know either(at least not exactly). It would be very hard to keep the prices of the basses down in the long run, if the most popular bass is the laminate and it still takes a whole lot of time and attention to complete one. I wish upton the best though, because they chose to go the route that best serves the bass community(same low price, even better quality) rather than less work, sell more basses in less time.

 

[Gufenov]

I'm thinking that finding people with adequate luthier (or at least, woodworking) skills might make expanding the staff a challenge.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Less time.

Yeah, right.

Been reading this thread?

Champion "soon-to-be-legendary" vaporware, pal. "You go, girl!"

I'd advise Upton on customer service: If you aren't shipping on schedule, offer "no questions asked" refunds to your customers who trusted you for ship dates, then got stiffed by YOUR inabilty to cover your end of the "agreement."

Starting with the bassist you beat out of $500.

 

[jrlynch]

Less time.

Yeah, right.

Been reading this thread?

Champion "soon-to-be-legendary" vaporware, pal. "You go, girl!"

I'd advise Upton on customer service: If you aren't shipping on schedule, offer "no questions asked" refunds to your customers who trusted you for ship dates, then got stiffed by YOUR inabilty to cover your end of the "agreement."

Starting with the bassist you beat out of $500.

out of curiousity, where's all the anger coming from? did upton "beat you" out of 500 bucks? to be fair, it's pretty clear how upton's deposit works and, as a customer, you enter into an *agreement* with them. personally, i think they should provide a specific deliver-by date, with some consequence if they blow the deadline, BUT if you agree to the deal without such a clause, as i and many seemingly satisfied customers here did, then you pretty much can blame yourself.

i know, it's a big bad conspiracy ... but i somehow doubt that any semi-rational human being would enter the business of crafting double basses with the intent of nicking an occasional customer out of $500.

and, i fail to see how it's "dishonest" to not inform a customer that there is some change in their product or production coming ... you folks have heard of, say, computers or automobilies? jez, you can buy a mac today (and i LIKE macs!) and have something faster-better-cheaper introduced the next day. does that make the folks at apple boldface liars? no, just businesspeople ... it's not pretty sometimes, but ...

i keep waiting for something of substance to come from this upton bashfest thread, but i'm not seeing it yet ...

i think i'll play some bass for a bit ... it keeps sounding better, not that that matters.

jeff.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Now if you can get an Upton Bass with their famous set-up ...

Let's see; "famous set-up"

Is that Arnold?

Jeff?

Merchant?

Oh... David Gage?

No?

Ummmmmmm. OK, who?

 

[Keyser Soze]

out of curiousity, where's all the anger coming from? did upton "beat you" out of 500 bucks?

No. I have a carve Chinese bass bass that kick ass that I paid less than Upton charges for its laminate. Plus... I actuallty HAVE the bass.

My only "anger" -- your word; not mine -- comes from intuting that Upton, in their transition from bass-importer to bass manufacturer, have shot themselvese inthe footy and, subequently, left bass players in the lurch.

It ain't my $500, bro.

But it doesn't belong in the Upton bank account, either.

I've been working for decades to see musicians get a fair shake. You got a problem w/ dat?

 

[BPeder]

Ummmmmmm. OK, who?

Me, BPeder.

In my opinion, getting into it with a commercial user in a public forum is like picking a fight with a guy in handcuffs. But hey, all head spaces are allowed here, even unpleasant ones...

 

[Eric_J]

Yes, being late is not good business. Yes, poor communication is not good marketing.

Upton is trying something ambitious, with countless new variables. While none of us signed on for their learning experience, it makes me feel better about myself and the situation to try practicing understanding, patience, and compassion. It helps me to think about how grateful I am for other things.

I would guess that when this painful period is over, they will be much better at estimating their true lead times. If and only if, they are rigorously tracking their labor times.

- Visionaries, entrepreneurs, and craftspeople are rarely effective managers, right out of the box. This is a separate skill set.

I use a project planning spreadsheet that I have developed over the years, similar to Microsoft Project. The idea is to accurately track actual times for each production operation and fit it into a realistic schedule of actual hourly/weekly "capacity" - not hours paid, but productive, billable time. It has taken me years of logging data to get to the point where I can say, two or three months ahead, that a project will be done painlessly on a certain day, without round-the-clock work, delays, and angry customers. I can now do this, but it took time, thought, and work.

As others have pointed out, unplanned processes such as moving materials can literally take hours on a job. Since this production run is on a larger scale than the firm is used to, things that took them minutes before may be taking days.
...
Also, there is an inviolable order of events...certain operations simply have to be done in a certain sequence and the whole run needs to have this operation done at once. Bottlenecks can be deadening to production flow. Finally, the final fitting and finagling, if everything is not machined perfectly, can be a full-on black hole of labor. Any mistake along the way creates an amazing domino effect that has to be lived to be believed.

- When stressed for an extended period, even for stellar workers, actual performance quality goes down. The harder one works, the less one accomplishes. Fatigue sets in. They are probably way beyond their limits of reserve strength at this point. Their thinking or performance may not currently be optimal. If they are like most folks I have worked with, this will improve when they get over this initial hurdle.
.

Dude, I work in computer software, can I send this to my manager and my manager's manager?

Bottom line, it always takes longer than you thought to do a good job. But in the end, it is better to take the time and do a good job the first time than to go back and have to do it again.