USB rechargeable onboard preamp power- Why not more common?

[lowfreqgeek]

confused.
why would you only get an hour in passive mode when your battery dies. passive is passive. no battery required.

Because some "passive" switches don't fully disconnect the output of the preamp from the circuit. As the supply voltage drops, the output section of the opamp starts to act like a diode rectifier when the passive signal is bigger than the supply rails. Pulling the battery out is even worse as the rails are now at 0V and the diode junctions are essentially 0.7V above and below ground. It's just a distortion generator at that point.

It depends on the specific opamps used and how the switching is done, but I've experienced and diagnosed the problem before. The only solution was to either keep a fresh battery in, or completely remove the amplifier from the circuit in passive mode.

 

[Basvarken]

"USB rechargeable onboard preamp power- Why not more common?"

Because the shape/connection of USB keeps changing. The shape of batteries doesn't.

 

[eddododo]

Because some "passive" switches don't fully disconnect the output of the preamp from the circuit. As the supply voltage drops, the output section of the opamp starts to act like a diode rectifier when the passive signal is bigger than the supply rails. Pulling the battery out is even worse as the rails are now at 0V and the diode junctions are essentially 0.7V above and below ground. It's just a distortion generator at that point.

It depends on the specific opamps used and how the switching is done, but I've experienced and diagnosed the problem before. The only solution was to either keep a fresh battery in, or completely remove the amplifier from the circuit in passive mode.

I mean that’s just unbelievably awful design

 

[kevinpmajka]

I have both of the Fishman Telecaster and Stratocaster style pickups with their usb charging. It charges super fast. Those have a micro-usb - which is a good cable option, but having a usb-c option would be great. I really like plugging it in. It's a quick charge and it lasts to about 145 hours on my estimate. The battery is replaceable I believe, so I would love a system like that for bass.

Getting a noiseless and two voice strat and tele set were were worth the active hassle for an electric guitar. I don't think it's perfect, but I don't think it is worth changing pickups to check anything else out at this point. Using off the shelf bodies by Warmoth/AllParts without having to special order something for a parts build was great. USB was convenient.

I've used 9 volt batteries primarily with Acoustic Electric Guitars over the years. If the swinging door is perfect, 9 volts are cool. If it's not, then they are annoying and a rechargeable would be better.

If I can drop anything into a standard passive fender shape object and not have to route beyond maybe shaping the cavity vs big holes, I'm down. I'm a goofy pickup dude. Let me plug in two pickups without having to solder so I can hear what they sound like for 5 minutes just so I don't wonder....

 

[krfoss]

USB has been around for a while. Even if they went with firt rectangle design, we've been using that one for quite some time. I bet they could pick one and make it work.

"USB rechargeable onboard preamp power- Why not more common?"

Because the shape/connection of USB keeps changing. The shape of batteries doesn't.

 

[swink]

I bet they could pick one and make it work

I am sure they can, but so far they have proven that they just don't do it.
When I think about it, it could be that by now I have thrown away more perfectly working chargers whose connectors no longer match the new device, than I have consumed 9V batteries.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

Well, it has already been done by different guitar companies but it was never a success. I guess that says it all. Money talks and hardly anyone really wanted it. At least not enough to actually buy it.

Personally I would never want a usb-port on my bass, for several reasons:

-Usb-ports are extremely fragile. A bass with a usb-port is definitely not something I would want to bring on tour. At least a battery (or a broken battery clip) can be easily replaced. The same can't be said about a worn/broken usb port.

-The last thing I need on tour is another device that needs charging. Especially one that may be unavailable in a cargo hold most of the time. Delaying the show 30 minutes because the guitar needs charging (and you've spent the entire day on planes, in airports or in a bus/van...) just isn't acceptable. At least my phone can be charged while I'm on stage.

-More electronic parts = a lot more hassle if anything fails. Parts may even become obsolete.

I prefer the reliability and easy maintenance/repairs of passive basses. Luckily I also prefer the tone/feel of passive basses.

As for those rechargable lithium batteries they're a fire hazard and I wouldn't them inside my home or near my instruments. If I have to use batteries I use old fashioned alkaline batteries and recycle them.

 

[groooooove]

I agree with this, except that isn't an option with EMG pickups. Their design makes them non functional without power.

actual active pickups do require power to work at all. they're certainly not anywhere near as common as passive pickups with an active preamp that could push/pull for passive.

i think in the case of actual active pickups it goes without saying you better keep spare batteries with you.. and change them regularly.

 

[FullumMusic]

Running out of battery mid-set is EASIER to solve with a USB port, depending on my bass. Yes, most basses in the past 20 years have their own battery boxes like my 6 string does. But my 4 string with aftermarket EMGs, i have to unscrew the control plate to have access to the battery. If it had a USB port, i could use USB Battery Pack in my pocket plugged into the bass.


That said, in terms of building, complexity, and weight, the single 9V is probably still the better choice (as much as i hate them). Lithium-ion (and other similar rechargeable types) aren't exactly Plug & Play. They need power management circuitry for use. They need recharge circuitry to control the recharge and have it stop recharging at the correct charge-level. Depending on the circuitry design and battery design, it might also need custom embedded software (firmware) written to manage a microcontroller which controls the battery & charging circuits, to handle the specific use-cases on the bass. I'm guessing boutique luthiers might not be C/C++ devs familiar with firmware development. And bigger manufacturers would probably have to pay a lot of money to hire a software and hardware dev team to design a bass like this properly enough to put it in mass produced basses. And why would they when they're already selling basses without spending that much money developing something that nobody really needs?

Remember, it's P-Bass and Tort, not integrated circuitry and onboard computers! (Says the schmo who's developing a project-bass with an onboard computer with digital fx & touchscreen & other sensors to control the FX.)

 

[dbsfgyd1]

confused.
why would you only get an hour in passive mode when your battery dies. passive is passive. no battery required.

i didn’t design it, and probably would understand why it works that way in the first place. But that is the way it works.

 

[CletusMarley]

Cool idea but I feel like if I just change my battery regularly I'd be good. They last forever to begin with so changing every 3 or 4 months even would be overkill. I might feel differently if I were playing out regularly.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

I mean that’s just unbelievably awful design

Believe it or not, many (maybe most) on-board preamp designers aren't EEs...

Which is also why the technical and regulatory complexity of rechargeable batteries in on-board preamps isn't considered by most.

 

[hbarcat]

Cool idea but I feel like if I just change my battery regularly I'd be good. They last forever to begin with so changing every 3 or 4 months even would be overkill. I might feel differently if I were playing out regularly.

I play 12 - 15 hours per week and have been putting in that many hours for 35+ years. I replace the battery in my bass once each year and I've never had batteries get low on power.

Even if I have to undo a half dozen little screws to get the control cavity cover off, it's still less than a five minute job begining to end.

I fail to see how having a USB charging port on my bass in order to save me five minutes of battery swapping time once a year is of any benefit to me. I did have a bass with a flip up battery cover. That takes all of 20 seconds to swap batteries.

If others might find an on board charger a useful feature, tthen they should probably lobby the guitar manufacturers, but frankly, I can't see that suggestion being given much consideration.

 

[Basvarken]

USB has been around for a while. Even if they went with firt rectangle design, we've been using that one for quite some time. I bet they could pick one and make it work.

These days it's mostly mini-usb that you see on devices.
Until they decide to change that again.

Just like they changed/abandoned: floppy discs, diskettes, optical disks, CDs , DVDs, DAT-tapes, Scart cables, ADSL cables, VGA cables, DVI cables, Display Port cables, et cetera.

 

[adje]

I seem to remember that John Entwistle had an "episode" with this at a show once, and it was 'the last straw' that led him to ditch Alembics and start his Buzzard Quest...

Well, the show was Live Aid, so it wasn't as if half the world was watching or anything ...

Before his untimely death, he was working with the Mothership on what would become the Dragon Wing, which is like the Alembic take on the Buzzard shape.

 

[chadds]

These days it's mostly mini-usb that you see on devices.
Until they decide to change that again.

Just like they changed/abandoned: floppy discs, diskettes, optical disks, CDs , DVDs, DAT-tapes, Scart cables, ADSL cables, VGA cables, DVI cables, Display Port cables, et cetera.

I know...and we are responsible for tossing the old for the new. I remember when every GC pro audio salesman was saying toss those mixing boards and get a channel strip. Hmmm glad I didn't do that. I'm glad new high functioning audio interfaces came along too.

 

[brianrost]

I am sure they can, but so far they have proven that they just don't do it.

USB-C will be with us for a while because it supports multiple protocols over a single connection. USB4 is nothing but Thunderbolt 3 under the hood and will support HDMI, Display Port, USB1 to 3.2, power delivery up to 100 watts for fast charging and no more fussing with putting the plug in upside down or using different cables for different devices. It's small enough that even thin devices can have a USB-C jack, no need for mini this, micro that any more.

The biggest barrier to USB-C today is manufacturers dragging their heels selling devices with older USB connectors. It's already been around 8 years, when Apple shipped the 2015 MacBook with only a single USB-C jack. Yet if I shop for a desktop hard drive, Western Digital, Seagate and others are not using it yet and many portable HDDs, SSDs and thumb drives don't use it either. Many computer makers still ship machines with USB-C and USB-A jacks, prolonging the agony. The EU forcing all portable devices to use USB-C starting in 2025 will accelerate acceptance.

 

[DWBass]

Not interested in USB charging because you'll be charging way more than a standard alkaline battery will last. I've had batteries last a year but I change mine every 6 months.

 

[swink]

This thread has been a bunch of old dogs telling me their current tricks are fine. All old tech was a new innovation at some point.

Innovation is good, but sometimes it's better to leave the things for what they are.

Personally, I am tired of all the so-called improvements that make life easier and more environmentally friendly. Work-related, I am happy to join in the merry-go-round of updates and patches. But outside of that, I want to reduce this to the minimum. I still read books, I still use pen and paper and have a street map in my car, I still talk to the people around me, and I want to keep my hobbies as analog as possible.
A QR code in a restaurant instead of a menu I find despicable and a reason to leave a restaurant.
Museums that only sell tickets on line, where you can't get in, even if you're at the door ... These are really not improvements.
So please stay off my bass with your so called improvements and don't turn it into a chicken!

 

[eddododo]

Believe it or not, many (maybe most) on-board preamp designers aren't EEs...

Which is also why the technical and regulatory complexity of rechargeable batteries in on-board preamps isn't considered by most.

I mean geez I’m no EE but I’ve designed plenty of preamps that can bypass without sitting at the output of the IC!