agree ^ Bars and clubs I have played in the past would show us the door if we asked them to sign a contract. For festivals, events etc there is no issue.
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venue refusing to sign a contract?
- Thread starter sleeplessknight
- Start date
agree ^ Bars and clubs I have played in the past would show us the door if we asked them to sign a contract. For festivals, events etc there is no issue.
Tat2dHeart
Only two strings away from an attitude problem.
I'm not a lawyer, but I do have a fair amount of contract experience (former buyer with a multi-million dollar budget).
IME, in the absence of a formal contract, an email or letter that defines the mutual intent of the parties where terms, payment, cancellation fees, etc. are defined by one or both parties and accepted by the other(s) can be considered a defendable written agreement (or letter of intent, or informal contract) should legal action be required.
YMMV depending on state and local laws...
If they're willing to do their business with you in email and define their terms there, I wouldn't throw such a big fuss about lack of your formal agreement unless you have it on good authority that they routinely cancel at the last minute or short the bands in payment. The suggestion of partial payment in advance and residual on day of show is a good suggestion, too.
IME, in the absence of a formal contract, an email or letter that defines the mutual intent of the parties where terms, payment, cancellation fees, etc. are defined by one or both parties and accepted by the other(s) can be considered a defendable written agreement (or letter of intent, or informal contract) should legal action be required.
YMMV depending on state and local laws...
If they're willing to do their business with you in email and define their terms there, I wouldn't throw such a big fuss about lack of your formal agreement unless you have it on good authority that they routinely cancel at the last minute or short the bands in payment. The suggestion of partial payment in advance and residual on day of show is a good suggestion, too.
But the terms of the "unbalanced" cancellation policy is not on email. I think if OP puts that on an email the next response might be "why are you doing this?" followed by a "we regret to inform you..."
An email is a written record of an agreement, and can be a middle ground between a handshake and a contract. In Australia, for the amounts we are talking, I've always found it sufficient.
You are of course free to insist on a contract, but the venue is equally free to hire someone else rather than sign it.
Even if the contract is fair, as soon as you ask me to do something I don't normally do it takes time for me to think about it, and maybe money to pay for legal advice if it's a contract. That's an incentive for me to not hire you because it's less hassle to hire someone else.
You are of course free to insist on a contract, but the venue is equally free to hire someone else rather than sign it.
Even if the contract is fair, as soon as you ask me to do something I don't normally do it takes time for me to think about it, and maybe money to pay for legal advice if it's a contract. That's an incentive for me to not hire you because it's less hassle to hire someone else.
I've rarely had a problem with any of my groups being given any grief about signing a contract (of course, most of our bookings are for private functions) but one group I play with is your typical dive bar blues band, and we had an incident happen a few months ago where we were booked at a bar for a weekend and I showed up that Friday afternoon to get ready for load in and setup and the place looked closed. I was able to catch the owner about them opening the place up and she informed me that the bar had gone OUT OF BUSINESS 3 weeks before and NO ONE bothered to contact the band about it! And at the time we did the typical verbal aggreement so there was no contract in place and we were basically out of a gig and out of that money for that weekend. Fortunately our keys player found us a last-minute gig that night and the following night down the street from that bar so it wasn't a total loss. I'm just glad that wasn't an out-of-town gig. So needless to say we have a contract now and offer our services to anyone willing to sign it 
I've rarely had a problem with any of my groups being given any grief about signing a contract (of course, most of our bookings are for private functions) but one group I play with is your typical dive bar blues band, and we had an incident happen a few months ago where we were booked at a bar for a weekend and I showed up that Friday afternoon to get ready for load in and setup and the place looked closed. I was able to catch the owner about them opening the place up and she informed me that the bar had gone OUT OF BUSINESS 3 weeks before and NO ONE bothered to contact the band about it! And at the time we did the typical verbal aggreement so there was no contract in place and we were basically out of a gig and out of that money for that weekend. Fortunately our keys player found us a last-minute gig that night and the following night down the street from that bar so it wasn't a total loss. I'm just glad that wasn't an out-of-town gig. So needless to say we have a contract now and offer our services to anyone willing to sign it
How would a contract have helped in that situation?
Because our band held up our end of the deal and the bar owners would be contractually obligated to pay us the agreed amount since we weren't notified in a timely manner of the cancellation, but only HOURS before we were to play. If they would've notified us of their closing and having to cancel our gigs when it happened it wouldn't have been a big deal since we would've had a few weeks notice and sufficient time to fill those open dates. It's not our fault that they forgot to keep up with their books. Our deal now I believe is any notification of cancellation less than 48 hours from the date and time of the booking would still require payment in full. Obviously, the bar owners can take it or leave it, but as of yet we haven't had any issues with it. They book us, we typically bring in a larger crowd than they have otherwise, their sales are up, so we're happy and they're happy and we get booked again.
So you would have sued an out-of-business dive bar? Good luck collecting on that one.
*gigglesnort*
And when it comes to recouping he's going to be in line for payment after at least a dozen companies they owe money to and employees that are looking to get paid for what they worked.
I had a conversation this evening with a guy that did the rounds and booked most of the bars and clubs in the Boston area.
He wasn't averse to a contract. But unless you're a national act it was kind of worthless. There's nothing in the contract worth it for them to hold you to. Most local bands have no real assets worth going after in event of a breach and the effort to even get to that point is more work and money than it's worth.
The bottom line is that a contract covers the band plenty, but there's almost nothing in it for the venue.
The purpose of a contract is to define what each of the parties is going to do, and what each is going to get out of the deal. In other words, who puts what in, & who gets what out.
The purpose of writing a contract is to make a record of the agreement (that's already been made).
Likewise, if the band cancels on short notice, the club may not be able get a comparable replacement & lose out on money. It cuts both ways.
I presume we're talking about a written contract here. The absolute worst way to handle a written contract (i.e. get one signed) is to shove it in somebody's face & tell them to sign it. As an expression of what has already been agreed to, it should be a simple thing. Every point has already been discussed & agreed on, right? But in practice, for most people, it seldom is that. The right way to make an agreement is to sit down and go over all the details, agreeing on each one. If I've just finished going over all these details with somebody, reached agreement on everything, and they refuse to sign a document acknowledging it, then I'm going to wonder why.
In real life, people don't always work that way. They may discuss a few terms vaguely, and blow off most of them entirely. If it's done right, a written contract serves as a checklist during negotiations. For instance, it's hard to forget to ask about load-in times, parking, etc. if it's printed on a page right in front of you.
If it's done right, a contract provides a good level of security to both parties, lets them be comfortable with the idea that they are dealing with pros who know what they're doing, & that things will happen exactly as expected.
The best time to ask somebody to sign a contract is before you sit down & talk details, not after. "Do you mind if I take notes while we're talking?" At the beginning of the conversation, it's a courtesy; at the end, it's more of a blind-side & sets a tone of mistrust.
Too often, people who aren't lawyers try to get too "lawyerly" with their contract & turn it into a mess. Big words don't make you look smart, especially if you don't use them right. Big words can also make other people think that you're trying to put something over on them.
The reality is that a lot of club owners/managers won't sign anything that commits them unless they absolutely have to. If they can get some other band that won't ask them to sign anything, then yours had better be well worth it in terms of liquor sales at the end of the night.
So, if you've gotten to the end of your negotiations - followed your "check list", taken your notes, etc. - the club owner/manager won't sign, but also won't tell you that there's anything "wrong" with what you've got documented, you have to make your own judgement call. Do you want to take a chance on the gig anyway, or stand on your principles? If you're going to take the gig (which I think most of us would, unless there's some very good reason not to), use your notes to craft a follow-up e-mail thanking them for hiring you and recapping the agreed-on terms. This serves as documentation, and gives them a chance to "correct" anything that they don't agree to.
The key to any good (business) relationship is trust. A good contract promotes trust. A bad contract sows seeds of mistrust.
Which takes time.
I've been in bands that could dictate terms, but they were the exception not the rule. Most of the time the venue owners are reasonable people who want your services, and you can work on handshake plus emails without getting screwed. I've been stiffed once in the last decade. My time has value and I regard it as cheaper to not get paid once rather than spending hours on negotiations with every new venue and probably miss out on a lot of work from venues who didn't want to play.
Clubs don't do contracts = BS. Think they have a verbal agreement with the power company? Their beer supplier? Landlord? Staff? Etc.
Personally, I'd just check with a couple bands who've played there before & see what these folk are like to do business with. If they would do business with them again, I'd trust the booker.
Personally, I'd just check with a couple bands who've played there before & see what these folk are like to do business with. If they would do business with them again, I'd trust the booker.
The only reason for not signing a contract is just in case you want to pull a fast one the band/venue has no recourse. Our standard contract protects both the band and venue to operate professionally, and protects both if any act of God should cause the gig to be cancelled. I usually aproach whoever's doing the booking with "would you mind signing a contract?" "It's our legal promise that we will be on time, and deliver a complete and professional show." I always do this in person whenever possible.
I have a rule with Clubs. If you won't sign a contract, then I won't sign the 1099.
Clubs don't sign contracts with bands because they are either unprofessional in business practices or because they want to keep the ability on the table of bouncing you if things come up.
By not having a contract, if the club has a bad night they can and will short you without a contract. At some point most of us have heard, "gee we really took it in the butt tonight. We thought you guys would bring your own crowd. Listen since we only had 10 people in the door and those 10 people were the band, we need to cut a deal on the payment..." This is where it really helps having a 6'4" 275 lead guitarist that spent most of his youth in youth detention centers.
I did a gig with this guy as an opening act for the 70's rock act Head East. Bar owner had a bad night, was going to have to pimp out his wife for months to cover Head East and decided to tell the opening act (promised $200 for opening and another $500 for providing the PA/Lighting) he can only give us about $300. So my guitarist grabbed the bar owner by the throat, plastered him to the wall about a foot off the ground and made him find the money in his pocket before he got to touch his feet back to the ground. All the while the Head East guys are taking note. We got our money, Head East got their money, the club closed within 3 months and everybody was happy.
For me though, if they are too chickensh*t to put their name on the line, I won't let them use me as a business write-off on their taxes. And no question that as a business they sign contracts all the time for various services. A smart club issues you the entertainment agreement contract in their terms, not yours. I'm usually good with this. I just want a written guarantee that I will get paid what is due. IF I choose to work with a club owner on a bad night depends 100% on whether I think that club has a hope in he-double hockey sticks of staying open long enough to be able to make it up to me (...never happens).
But then I don't depend on clubs for big money dates. In Wisconsin we have a massive festival circuit in the warm weather months that forces me to play "Brown Eyed Girl" but pays me $300-500 a night to do so. Or I could play a club date investing 8-10 hours of my day into a $75 paycheck. I've done the math, screw the clubs, I've done my time.
Clubs don't sign contracts with bands because they are either unprofessional in business practices or because they want to keep the ability on the table of bouncing you if things come up.
By not having a contract, if the club has a bad night they can and will short you without a contract. At some point most of us have heard, "gee we really took it in the butt tonight. We thought you guys would bring your own crowd. Listen since we only had 10 people in the door and those 10 people were the band, we need to cut a deal on the payment..." This is where it really helps having a 6'4" 275 lead guitarist that spent most of his youth in youth detention centers.
I did a gig with this guy as an opening act for the 70's rock act Head East. Bar owner had a bad night, was going to have to pimp out his wife for months to cover Head East and decided to tell the opening act (promised $200 for opening and another $500 for providing the PA/Lighting) he can only give us about $300. So my guitarist grabbed the bar owner by the throat, plastered him to the wall about a foot off the ground and made him find the money in his pocket before he got to touch his feet back to the ground. All the while the Head East guys are taking note. We got our money, Head East got their money, the club closed within 3 months and everybody was happy.
For me though, if they are too chickensh*t to put their name on the line, I won't let them use me as a business write-off on their taxes. And no question that as a business they sign contracts all the time for various services. A smart club issues you the entertainment agreement contract in their terms, not yours. I'm usually good with this. I just want a written guarantee that I will get paid what is due. IF I choose to work with a club owner on a bad night depends 100% on whether I think that club has a hope in he-double hockey sticks of staying open long enough to be able to make it up to me (...never happens).
But then I don't depend on clubs for big money dates. In Wisconsin we have a massive festival circuit in the warm weather months that forces me to play "Brown Eyed Girl" but pays me $300-500 a night to do so. Or I could play a club date investing 8-10 hours of my day into a $75 paycheck. I've done the math, screw the clubs, I've done my time.
That's not true in my neck of the woods they don't do contracts and if you try you don't play...period..clubs that is. Services may need contracts for a club but bands? No. There are more bands competing for the gig than they need and most clubs hold the rules.
jive1
Commercial User
Well, this is DC. And every agency gig that I have done involved a contract, even if it was a last minute fill-in. This included A rooms and little dive bars.
Here's my breakdown based on experience for contracts:
- If there's a cancellation, if you don't have a deposit then you will have to go through the hassle of chasing down the non-payment. That clause is useless for most clubs, unless they really want you. But, if they did, then they won't cancel.
- It will help some in terms of payment at the end of the night. If everyone does their job, it's not an issue, unless it's something like a weather type of thing for an outdoor show.
- What I find it most helpful for is sundry items they won't fight you on as much. Items such as drinks/food for the band, breaks, start-time, set up time, sound, etc. are the best items to enforce with a contract.
So at the end of the day, your most enforceable parts of the contract are the miscellaneous items because they are enforceable on the spot. From a booking perspective, the question is whether that worth not playing there for.
Here's my breakdown based on experience for contracts:
- If there's a cancellation, if you don't have a deposit then you will have to go through the hassle of chasing down the non-payment. That clause is useless for most clubs, unless they really want you. But, if they did, then they won't cancel.
- It will help some in terms of payment at the end of the night. If everyone does their job, it's not an issue, unless it's something like a weather type of thing for an outdoor show.
- What I find it most helpful for is sundry items they won't fight you on as much. Items such as drinks/food for the band, breaks, start-time, set up time, sound, etc. are the best items to enforce with a contract.
So at the end of the day, your most enforceable parts of the contract are the miscellaneous items because they are enforceable on the spot. From a booking perspective, the question is whether that worth not playing there for.
Actually, the first reason I was given as to why contracts with local bands were undesirable was that bands rarely had their act together enough to get everyone together at one time to sign one.
The hassle involved in getting one to the band, getting them all to sign it and returning it in time rarely occurred for it to be of benefit for either party.
You have to admit, from the very get-go, typical bands are comprised of flakes. The sterotype exists for a reason. With this in mind, walking into a venue and handing them a piece of paper that's legally binding which holds them, a group that actually HAS assets that can be lost, to local musicians, a group that typically has nothing of value, is kind of bewildering.
You're asking for a venue to put it all on the line when the band itself has nothing to actually be recouped. In great part bands can hold all the cards. If they don't show up they don't get paid. But if on a critical night there's no band and crowds go elsewhere it means exponentially more money is going to be lost.
If the bar doesn't make its money than it goes under. If the band doesn't gig then they're forced to have to work their day jobs.
The bar has way more to lose. Unless a band has assets to be seized then they always will.
The point I was trying to make is that the only area clubs seem to not 'do' contracts in writing is for bands.
There always is a Contract; an agreement between parties about who will give what to each other. Verbal, email, written; whatever format.
