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victor wooten&les claypool

#41
corinpills said:
That's a really good post, kayhos. Just for the record, I don't think less of anyone who enjoys that sort of thing, I just get zero satisfaction from hearing it. It just seems so empty to me, I'd much rather listen to a good song with a hooky bass line. I wish I could hear what others enjoy in those two artists, but I've exposed myself to plenty by both of them, have even seen Primus live, and I just don't dig it at all.

Part of it, I think, is that I think it oculd be a really bad influence on younger bass players. I really think taht a 15 year old kid, just getting into bass, would get a whole bunch of the wrong idea about bass from listening to either of those guys. A more experienced player can rationalize "well, these guys must have really learned their instrument and have years of playing under their belt before they started breaking all the rules", but a younger person might just see all that flash and technique and think that's what it's all about. I just feel like they could get more from listening to what Duck Dunn does behind some of the great Stax singers. then again, it's not like those two things are mutually exclusive.

But that's me, I believe the children are the future.
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Well, that's how some of us (come on... admit it guys) that are in our late 20's that started when we were in the early teens might have viewed it. Although not many had the skill to mimic it. What matters is they do end up shooting for something, and most likely, like the rest of us, they grow up learning to appreciate the bassics( :D ) as well.

I certainly grew up looking up to the shredders and wankers of my day, but never really tried to emulate them. I took influence in that I sometimes do prefer to step out a bit, but not at the sacrifice of a song. But I also have learned to appreciate a lot of guys, like duck dunn as you mentioned, for laying it down smooth and simple. I've learned to do that as well thanks to that influence. Doesn't mean I suddenly dislike any 'wankering'. I love bass period I guess. That's what it should be about.

Troll
 
#43
As for the newbie thing, bottom line is to express you through the bass, not your idols.
Sponge off any bassist or musicaian, but always be you. Thats why I am personally not impressed by people ripping out jaco tunes ect and thinking thats the benchmark for judgement. So what. Anyone can sit and learn other peoples tunes. learn from others but create your own voice, that is the true goal. Don't get sucked into focusing on being a clone, cause there are plenty of 'clones' out there.
 
#44
Well, I'll give you a really good practical example of that. I have a younger nephew who plays bass and whenever I'm around he talks about the two bass players in question incessantly. He' s obviously picked up from gear magazines and whatnot that these two guys are the king bass players of today. That's cool with me, I always just encourage him in whatever he does whether it's sports, academics, music or whatever.

Anyway, he says to me "Oh you have to check out my band" and I was excited to see what he's been up to on bass for the last few years. He and his buddies get together and one guy plays a guitar lick by someone, the drummer does a fill by whoever he's into and my nephew hacks his way through a couple of Les Calypol tricks he learned form tabs in a magazine. Then they "jam" on a riff for 20 minutes with no chord changes or melody, just a bunch of soloing. I said to them "Do you guys know any songs?" and they had no idea what I was taking about. "Know any Zeppelin? Stones? Johnny B. Goode? Anything with a form, melody and changes?" No, no and no. These guys have been "studying" their instruments for 3 or 4 years and somehow missed the entire point of what they're doing because they're trying to learn little party trick riffs.

Now, that's not the fault of Les Claypool, but really, that's what he's selling. Is his target consumer older musicians who really understand the background of where he's coming from? No, it's kids who like musical fart jokes.
 
#45
You seem to be selling the youth short, your(shameful edit :crying: ) theory is that all these kids will simply feel that speed equals skill and devote themselves to nothing but that, but look even here on this bass board, it's full of kids and alot of them got their start on this instrument from Vic and Les and they are not all wankers foaming at the mouth. Of course your talking as though wanking was just invented, because after all, folks like Led Zeppelin were NEVER guilty of over playing, no sir :rolleyes:. Sure Victor and Les's styles are based heavily on slap styles of the seventies gurus, but these guys are inventing new amazing techniques by adapting the old techniques then modifying them and that's exactly what the fans of these guys are doing now. Music always needs a breath of fresh air and that's what Vic and Les are.

Also I wouldn't worry about the fundamentalist bassists( "the bass is a pillar not a statue, it is utility not beauty" hmm I may have stolen that from Tony Levin's next book) being smothered out of existence. After all for every kid playing victor wooten licks there are whole forums of kids who see it and just itch to get online and complain about it. I think musical Masturbating is ok (though just like the real deal) in moderation, I like a bit of a speed show now and then, hell I've been known to get a bit high on the bpm speedometer myself. So my advice would be if it isn't your thing leave it at that, don't declare it the aids of future bass playing, you don't like it why not just politely leave it at that?

Whew, that was a long first post for me to finally come out of lurking on this board with.

p.s. remember, bass does not end at flat wounds and walking lines. It may have started there, but that's not where it ends.
 
#46
I think I'm being pretty polite (otherwise I'd explain the difference between 'you're' and 'your' to you... a joke. a mere joke, man. Just teasing.) I suppose you're probably right (and, really, who am I to worry about the youth of today and all that?), but I certainly don't hear any of that playing when I hear younger cats trying out basses in music stores. I hear a whole lot of music store chops, usually executed poorly. I'm sure I did the same thing when I was 18. For the record, I wasn't pointing out Zeppelin as anything other than, at the time, I was grasping for straws to think of something my nephew and his friends might know that was vaguely song based (albeit all songs ripped off from others).

For the record, I have nothing against playing fast or any technique at all- as long as it somehow supports the music. For instance, I think Matt Freeman does a great job in Rancid (though I suppose his 'technique" is more about excitement and aggression than clean execution). I'm not a huge fan of them (I'll take the Clash doing the same thing), but his bass lines push and propell the songs. Essentially, I suppose that's it; I like songs.
 
#47
Arg, I can't believe I missed that "you're", back to spelling school for me.

I see your point about the guitar store licks, but lets face it people like to show off especially young people, I think many of them can hold a groove and so on, they just want people to be like "woah man, that's cool" and I guess they assume that playing in a slow but supportive fashion won't accomplish that, I personally am impressed with both kinds of playing especially when a younger guy is doing it, because it shows bass has a bright future.
 
#48
Copying idols isn't necessarily always about showing off. I knew someone in high school who was in the popular punk band who was a talentless hack. He could fumble a couple of blink basslines and that was about it. To this day, he hasn't improved one bit as a bassist. He may be better at copying someone else more than he used to be, but he doesn't write anything better than he previously did. My point - coming to bass or any other instrument and basing yourself on one or a couple of idols within a tight genre is going to limit you to playing the same stuff as them.

Rather than bagging out Claypool or Wooten for having distinctive and often copied styles, we need to promote a wider range of bass playing. Listening to the influences of the great players, you hear inspirations ranging from pioneering bass players, to other instrumentalists to nature and the environment. Next time you hear a typical teenager playing some repititive slap rip-off, push them in a direction that they may not have taken on their own. Most people who play bass like doing so and they like hearing all kinds of bass playing. Sometimes they just don't know where to look. Something to think about.

Leigh
 
#49
corinpills said:
Well, I find them both impressive in the same way I would if someone set their knees on fire and did a backflip at party. Personally, everything I've heard by either of them is the complete opposite of what I enjoy in music or what I think bass should do in music (I just have no room in my heart for self indulgant bass wankery).

This sounds like justification for someone who can't play like they can. Instead of pushing your self and learning complicated new styles, just keep telling yourself it's not worth it. Any one that trashes these two artists is obviously jealous of their ability to showcase their instrument.
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#50
That's one perspective, I suppose. Doing an awful lot of pointing there, aren't you? Sir, I challange you to...a bass off. tapping and slapping at dawn, what say you?

Nah, man, I can overplay with the best of them, all sorts of rubbish that doesn't impress anybody but other bass players, but sister, I'm telling you that ain't where it's at.
 
#51
Mon Rominee said:
The idea is that they gravitate only to the fast, intricate playing instead of getting down to what the primary role of bass playing is, creating a foundation. Get good at that and work up. Not start at the top and ingore what's underneath.

It's like when bass became a high profile / high public interest instrument again with the likes of Flea and his slap happiness, and then you have alot of noobs that do nothing but slap, but cannot hold the bottom down to save their lives.
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Flea can hold the bottom down better than most others. I prefer his finger-grooving to his slap lines any day of the week. And Les and Vic are more than capable of laying it down too. I enjoy all facets of their playing. If a kid wants to play at a million miles per hour, then let him/her. Music is subjective.
 
#52
If someone dare talk sh^t on the greats and then challenges me to a bass off it must be so. send your mp3 to my email, and if it ever gets there I will see if you walk the walk. I will ofcourse do the same, if you're serious. I can dig it.
 
#53
I understand Primus can be kind of hard to swallow sometimes. I personally like the guitarist Gary Lallone just as much as Les Claypool. But trashing on the Vic? Every non-musisician and musisician that I have ever introduced to the VW has become an instant fan. By the way, you don't have to be a fellow bass player to be impressed with the album "A Show of Hands". This is "where its at" with the bass. Where it is not is where you are and the rest of the bass world was before innovators like VW hit the scene. No one is on the edge playing the same stuff that has been plaguing the creative evolution of the bass. The bass, along with all music, is evolving. If you argue that it is a step in the wrong direction, I feel sorry for you. By the way, I don't like the Beatles, but I never pipe up in front of someone that does. Almost every serious bass player would vouch for these guys. It is just asking for trouble to bash them. There is no point. You are convincing no one.
 

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#54
FunkKing said:
Flea can hold the bottom down better than most others.
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Never said he couldn't...but:
FunkKing said:
I prefer his finger-grooving to his slap lines any day of the week.
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in keeping with my reference to him, you are in the minority.


And OOOOOOH! A bass off! Corin, I know your tongue was poking thru your cheek on that one...
 
#56
slap_funk said:
Where it is not is where you are and the rest of the bass world was before innovators like VW hit the scene. QUOTE]

Yeah, it was horrible when all we had were players like James Jamerson, Duck Dunn, Larry Graham, Jerry Jemmot, Aston Barrett and cats like that who played song-based music that touched millions of people's hearts and effected society as a whole. Oh, it was dark times, man. Much better to have more weedly weedly bass parts to listen to in your bedroom.

Dude , dig it: the bass line to "My Girl" has done more good for the world than anything Victor Wooten will ever dream of doing. It's music for the world, not music for other musicians. Go play that song and your very favorite muso self indulgant funk fest for your Aunt Betty who doesn't play and ask her which is better. Music is for them, not us. We are the servants, we are bass players. We support. This "evolution" you speak of is simply not that appealing. It's does a lot of good for the advertising department at Bass Player magazine, but I'm not buying it.


You keep feeling sorry for my, my man. I wish you a choptastic Christmas.

And, as anybody knows, Bass Offs can only be properly done on hillsides at dawn.
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#59
Dude , dig it: the bass line to "My Girl" has done more good for the world than anything Victor Wooten will ever dream of doing. You keep feeling sorry for my, my man. I wish you a choptastic Christmas.

And, as anybody knows, Bass Offs can only be properly done on hillsides at dawn.[/QUOTE]

Dude, dig it. The bass line to "my girl" hasn't blown any minds. Listen to "more love" by Vic. It doesn't even get too into it. It just sounds good. Your predisposition keeps you from even looking at this stuff with a unbiased mind. Even when Vic give supportive bass lines with other jazz groups, you have categorized his playing as "bass wankery". As far as my christmas, It will be choptastic. Time will go on, even if you are stuck in the past. There will be only more and more Vic Wootens and Les Claypools, and I know for darn sure they are ten times more entertaining to musicians and nonmusicians alike than "my girl". I bet you like to rain on peoples' primus and vic parade a lot, but it the attention you get from claiming such things about these artists that drives you. You would rather be a sh:t talking stick in the mud because people are going to remember you better than the slew of bassists that will admit that they are awesome.
 

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