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victor wooten&les claypool

#21
corinpills said:
Part of it, I think, is that I think it oculd be a really bad influence on younger bass players. I really think taht a 15 year old kid, just getting into bass, would get a whole bunch of the wrong idea about bass from listening to either of those guys.
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Why is it 'the wrong idea'? Just because you're not a fan of their style, it doesnt mean what they play is in any way 'wrong' in terms of bass playing. If somebody wishes to copy Les or Vic, its their choice. Different strokes and all that.
 
#22
FunkKing said:
Why is it 'the wrong idea'? Just because you're not a fan of their style, it doesnt mean what they play is in any way 'wrong' in terms of bass playing. If somebody wishes to copy Les or Vic, its their choice. Different strokes and all that.
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The idea is that they gravitate only to the fast, intricate playing instead of getting down to what the primary role of bass playing is, creating a foundation. Get good at that and work up. Not start at the top and ingore what's underneath.

It's like when bass became a high profile / high public interest instrument again with the likes of Flea and his slap happiness, and then you have alot of noobs that do nothing but slap, but cannot hold the bottom down to save their lives.
 
#24
Mon Rominee said:
The idea is that they gravitate only to the fast, intricate playing instead of getting down to what the primary role of bass playing is, creating a foundation. Get good at that and work up. Not start at the top and ingore what's underneath.

It's like when bass became a high profile / high public interest instrument again with the likes of Flea and his slap happiness, and then you have alot of noobs that do nothing but slap, but cannot hold the bottom down to save their lives.
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The thing is Vic and Les do provide a foundation, just one that's in a different style. Im sure these 2 bassists started from the bottom and worked up. I have heard plenty of material from both that isn't just crazy bizzare slap stuff. Espically the Buckethead/Claypool album and live show I attended. Les was sounding very Jazzy during a lot of the improv jams if I may say so.

I would be a good example of the person who started off just doing nothing but slap. That is what got me interested in the bass in the first place. I realized I could do all this stuff, but I now also want to know about music and how it's played as well. So now I concentrait more on this. That's the way it works for a lot of people. Believe it or not, Vic and Les have a lot a musical ability and knowledge that is incorporated into their odd styles.
 
#25
Bad Brains, you are entirely missing my point.

Listen up:

Wooten and Les DID their homework. They know how to groove, and got to a point where they can innovate and get noodly or whatever it is they do. No one contested this, let alone me.

The point I was trying to make, and what was obvious in the first place in re: to their influence on new bassists, (and a direct link to my Flea analogy) is that a new-to-bass-bassist will perk their ears up to the stuff Wooten or Les does now, and take that as the only thing they think they should focus on, emulation of their current thing, without having done the homework into what it took for Woot and Les to get to there... ie: starting off as good, capable supportive bassists.


Do you catch the meaning now?
 
#26
Mon Rominee said:
Bad Brains, you are entirely missing my point.

Listen up:

Wooten and Les DID their homework. They know how to groove, and got to a point where they can innovate and get noodly or whatever it is they do. No one contested this, let alone me.

The point I was trying to make, and what was obvious in the first place in re: to their influence on new bassists, (and a direct link to my Flea analogy) is that a new-to-bass-bassist will perk their ears up to the stuff Wooten or Les does now, and take that as the only thing they think they focus on, emulation of their current thing, without having done the homework into what it took for Woot and Les to get to there... ie: starting off as good, capable supportive bassists.


Do you catch the meaning now?
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But what control does Vic and Les have over how beginning bassists emulate them?

That's their style and there's no reason they should change it for fear of beginning bassists copying them.
 
#27
No. Again, this wasn't a slight on their style, it's more a nod to, in keeping with Corin's sentiment:

"Part of it, I think, is that I think it oculd be a really bad influence on younger bass players. I really think taht a 15 year old kid, just getting into bass, would get a whole bunch of the wrong idea about bass from listening to either of those guys. A more experienced player can rationalize "well, these guys must have really learned their instrument and have years of playing under their belt before they started breaking all the rules", but a younger person might just see all that flash and technique and think that's what it's all about."

What's so hard to understand about this quote? It's so black and white it amazes me. That's a good rationale. It's like a new guitarist trying to play "eruption" straight out of the gate and massacre-ing it, and never truly becoming a good player.

It's not a matter of a good solid bassist EVENTUALLY emulating them,( and there's nothing wrong with that if that's your thing ) once they get the bassis for good bass playing down, it's more about a newbie thinking that flashy playing is the only thing to focus on, and missing the hard work they should do to get to that point. Sure, they can sound like a half-ass flea or woot or whatever, but they couldn't play along to a song to save their lives, not understand what the "pocket" is, none of that...

I'm getting dizzy.
 
#28
Mon Rominee said:
No. Again, this wasn't a slight on their style, it's more a nod to, in keeping with Corin's sentiment:

"Part of it, I think, is that I think it oculd be a really bad influence on younger bass players. I really think taht a 15 year old kid, just getting into bass, would get a whole bunch of the wrong idea about bass from listening to either of those guys. A more experienced player can rationalize "well, these guys must have really learned their instrument and have years of playing under their belt before they started breaking all the rules", but a younger person might just see all that flash and technique and think that's what it's all about."

What's so hard to understand about this quote? It's so black and white it amazes me.
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What I get from that statement is the road that every young player has to go through. You see someone with alot of experience and you wish you could do what they do. Then you realize it's not as easy as you thought and you have to woodshed for years before you can do what they do. And if the younger person doesn't realize that they need to learn the foundation before they can branch out then that's something they'll have to learn like everyone else.

I still don't see how Vic or Les would be at fault here. Would you blame Michael Schumacher if a beginning driver sees him at an F1 race and decides to try to emulate him and runs his car into a ditch?
 
#31
Mon Rominee said:
But the thing is, no one placed any fault upon them. Can you tell me who did?

Honestly, I'm not in a foul mood or anything, but I truly think the spirit of that post, in the better interest of a new-player's learning, is been totally missed.
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I understand where you're coming from and I don't think that you're in a foul mood either. ;)

It's just that if a newbie sees a guy with incredible skill and try's to be just like him without learning the basics of a groove first, I don't see how the more experienced player would be responsible in any way.There's only one way that Vic or Les got to be the way they are and it's not from starting with a chop-fest from day one. If the newbie doesn't realize that, then that's just one more step in the learning process. They'll realize it sooner or later.
 
#32
Mon Rominee said:
Your thought Bernine:

"if the younger person doesn't realize that they need to learn the foundation before they can branch out then that's something they'll have to learn like everyone else."

I agree 1000% the thing is, some players simply don't. They only aspire to be noodlers to impress.
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I see where you're coming from. But that's the fault of the new player. They need to realize what the full spectrum of bass is. Not just the soloing. They need to look at Vic and Les for inspiration. Take that inspiration and turn it into something.
 
#33
Right. It was simply a matter of where do you start a new player's listenning habits on?

Be "inspired" by Les or Wooten, but if you're new, focus on Dunn or T-Bone or other players who on recording define the more humble, supportive role. baby steps.

The ones who think it's all flash with either learn backwards, or never learn and eventually quit. No harm no foul.
 
#34
Mon Rominee said:
Right. It was simply a matter of where do you start a new player's listenning habits on?

Be "inspired" by Les or Wooten, but if you're new, focus on Dunn or T-Bone or other players who on recording define the more humble, supportive role. baby steps.

The ones who think it's all flash with either learn backwards, or never learn and eventually quit. No harm no foul.
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I would agree that it's a very good idea to have a well rounded base of musicians that you look to for inspiration and the occasional technique. But one also has to strive to look for their own voice on the instrument. It's easy for a misguided beginning player to try to emulate his bass hero's every chop, but that's not healthy.

I've seen way too many Wooten copies at music stores. But that goes along with the territory. Vic knows that people all around the world are wanting to be just like him, but he can't keep from being himself on stage.

If you look at Vic he has influences from many different bassists. Larry Graham, Jaco and Bootsy to name a few. He's taken guys with all different styles and drawn from them to create his own voice on the instrument.

That's what the new player needs to do. I think if someone wants to look at a bassist for most of their inspiration, they need to look at what that bassists influences are/were. In doing that, they should see that their bass hero has alot of different influences, and hopefully, that will show them that they need to do the same.
 
#40
Bernie Connors said:
I would agree that it's a very good idea to have a well rounded base of musicians that you look to for inspiration and the occasional technique. But one also has to strive to look for their own voice on the instrument. It's easy for a misguided beginning player to try to emulate his bass hero's every chop, but that's not healthy.

I've seen way too many Wooten copies at music stores. But that goes along with the territory. Vic knows that people all around the world are wanting to be just like him, but he can't keep from being himself on stage.

If you look at Vic he has influences from many different bassists. Larry Graham, Jaco and Bootsy to name a few. He's taken guys with all different styles and drawn from them to create his own voice on the instrument.

That's what the new player needs to do. I think if someone wants to look at a bassist for most of their inspiration, they need to look at what that bassists influences are/were. In doing that, they should see that their bass hero has alot of different influences, and hopefully, that will show them that they need to do the same.
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Yeah, I totally agree.

I love watching Vic's Live at Bass Day '98 DVD.

What's interesting, is that I get as much of a kick watching the section about his influences as I do watching him during his performance.

Even Vic says you need to make sure you groove first, then you can put the icing (flashy stuff) on top. The man has paid his dues and understands what his role is as a bass player. He also expanded on that and went after a more solo role which he has done very well in.

The new player has to have the ability to do research to roundout their style, as has been mentioned. The newbie is only scratching the surface by looking at the current cats today. The current cats had many players to learn from and new ones can learn from the same folks as well.

Personally, I love Vic's style of playing. Some of the stuff he does I really can't get into very much. I see it and it's like 'Wow!', but that's about it. His tapping and other melodic stuff is very awesome sounding to me and that's the type of stuff I like to play and will continue working on.

I love his support work in the Flecktones, such as Scratch N Sniff (Live Album), and my favorite tune from them, Big Country. He is very passionate about music and always makes me smile when he seems to enjoy himself. Case in point, playing Vulcan Worlds with his brother in the Bass Day '98 DVD. After Regi does his thing and Vic starts up with him, he gets a huge grin and always makes me smile. His tone is great during that song and plays real well.

One last thing, I think the thing that, if new ones listen closely, Vic shows us is that it's ok to make mistakes. I hear and see several in that DVD that makes me appreciate his is just like us, a human being, not Superman or anything. He has just put his focus and a lot of time into improving his musical ability and still manages to slip here and there. That made me appreciate him more.

Sorry for the long post. Really good thread.
JB
 

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