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vintage = good? why ?
- Thread starter crusie
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I used to do vintage authentication and appraisal. I've seen 'em all.
Vintage value is primarily about scarcity.
Few general statements can be made about a given year of vintage Fender output because the pre-automation individual instruments were handmade and inconsistent to an extent inconceivable to a modern buyer.
A few were very good, most weren't anything special. Most vintage virtue is myth.
When FMIC tried to resurrect the old-style instruments, they found they couldn't do it because there were such vast differences between the "same" instruments that they finally just had to average things out and make arbitrary decisions about what "vintage" really was.
Vintage value is primarily about scarcity.
Few general statements can be made about a given year of vintage Fender output because the pre-automation individual instruments were handmade and inconsistent to an extent inconceivable to a modern buyer.
A few were very good, most weren't anything special. Most vintage virtue is myth.
When FMIC tried to resurrect the old-style instruments, they found they couldn't do it because there were such vast differences between the "same" instruments that they finally just had to average things out and make arbitrary decisions about what "vintage" really was.
I think most players yearn for something fundamentally unobtainable in instruments. It's all about angst and geezing, whether it's for old instruments no longer made or for new instruments still unmade. I have to check myself on it all the time.
There's a lot of like new vintage fenders out there that people with way to much money have spent way to much money on. A great number of those people are collecting the instruments because of what they think they are rather than how they play or sound. IMHO theres very little hope that a museum quality vintage Fender bass sounds or plays anywhere near what most bass players assume they do. They look good... they have all the right numbers... and they have the name on the headstock. That doesn't mean it's a phenomenal instrument behind the glass. And 'those' are the ones that will end up being the measuring stick years and years and years down the road when all of hte other good ones that made the brand famous have rotted away.
IMHO.
.
I have a '63 P and I have a 2000 MIM Jazz. Neither sounds better than the other. Both have nice action and play well. Both sound good, although slightly different. They're a J and a P - they're supposed to sound different!
IMO people paying big money for "vintage" when the same instrument is available in a more recent build for less money are making a poor value judgment.
IMO people paying big money for "vintage" when the same instrument is available in a more recent build for less money are making a poor value judgment.
Even when the right "vintage" instrument stands a very good chance of increasing in value, and that's a consideration in the purchase decision?
I think this is it right here. And it is true whether you are talking about guitars, cars, jewelry, stamps, furniture, whatever. The more rare something is, the more highly it is prized by those who collect it.
I think that's probably putting it far too kindly.
It really helps to be 100% emotionally detached from gear and as coldly objective and broadly educated as possible. I find gear interesting but totally unexciting, which is a very, very good thing if you're making money decisions about it.
What people have to understand is that old gear -- particularly Fender -- was made freehand by semi-skilled labor with a skinflint boss who didn't sweat the small stuff. I have to laugh every time some grifter markets "vintage spec" stuff because vintage effectively had no spec. The variations in DCR in the "same" vintage pickups will exceed those between several different modern pickups. It's amazing.
Bodies and necks were shaped one at a time by various people with various attitudes who came and went, not by CNT machines, from whatever lumber Leo could get an attractive price on that week, some of which was terrible, some of which was great.
When people attribute all these tightly specific attributes to "vintage" sound and "playability" (a great nonsense-word, that!), you know you're dealing with someone ignorant or intentionally deceptive.
Ah... not really.
You can't go out and buy a brand new muscle car that is exactly the same as an old muscle car. Unlike Fender basses.
The vintage guitar market is weird. People invent all kinds of bizarre theories and pass them off as fact. Like the "old wood" argument, for example. Or searching out guitars with pickups made by specific Fender employees. But it's human nature to spread myth, I suppose.
Vintage gear doesn't sound better than new gear. It's fun to play something old. That's really the only appeal.
You can, however, buy a new Camaro, which is meant to capture the "spirit" of the old 67-69 Camaros...and people can certainly have a preference one way or the other.
(Notice also that I said "new cars", not "exact reproductions". IOW, "why would someone prefer an old car over a new one ? Because they do.")
But I digress...
I was simply making a statement about "preferences"...nothing more, nothing less. People have opinions, and the only "reason" that they need to have for their opinion is that "they prefer it".
ABSOLUTELY.
I don't buy instruments for collector value or appreciation. Neither one is a consideration in purchasing - ever.
I buy 'em to play 'em. I take meticulous care of them, but they aren't investments, they're tools.
Having said that, I own a few older instruments like a really lovely 70's Univox hollowbody. I enjoy the sense of history that comes with them on an aesthetic basis, but I don't overpay. I have less than $250 into that beautiful Univox HB.
By 2010, almost all "vintage" stuff is more or less fake.
The market is so incredibly corrupt and senseless that I would no longer recommend "investment" in vintage guitars or basses for anyone but a truly full-time, professional expert.
This is why I got out of doing appraisal and authentication. People want to be deceived and don't wish to be undeceived. Telling morons they were being ripped off made them angry at me and not the seller.
Not necessarily. Scarcity is coupled to arbitrary demand.
Here: A nice vintage Gibson 335 is worth a lot of money. A nice vintage Gibson 330 isn't worth squat, relatively speaking.
Demand is also manufactured, just as surely as fakes are. CBS Fender instruments, which for decades were reviled, are magically becoming "great" instruments based on absolutely nothing but wishful thinking.
I get that you don't buy instruments for collector value, but my question was meant to get at whether others who paid more for a vintage instrument were necessarily making a "poor value judgment" if they were taking appreciation into account in their decision making process.
The masses of our youth are not prepared to know this yet...it's too soon, too much, too soon! LOL!
So shhhhhh!
Ultimately, if someone finds a guitar that is "the right one for them", it doesn't matter if it's a $100 SX or a $10,000 vintage Fender. Only their opinion matters, and if their opinion is that one (or the other) is right, then there is no need to justify the price.
But much of what Bongolation is saying is correct IMO - supply and demand is the main factor in driving a vintage instrument up in price, often to a level seen by many as "ridiculous". In the end though, something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If people willing to pay a couple hundred thousand bucks for a 59 Les Paul, then that is how much it is "worth".
IMO, all of the great playing vintage Fenders I've played aren't in pristine condition - not even close.
My speculation is, the ones that are still in amazing condition today (Closet Classics) were probably dogs to begin with.
IMO the best playing basses you'll find are the ones that look like they've been through hell and back.
Case and point - my good friend's 66 Jazz (he also has a matching P beat to hell that plays and sounds amazing). This thing plays like butter and hasn't been set up in years. It hasn't needed it.
My speculation is, the ones that are still in amazing condition today (Closet Classics) were probably dogs to begin with.
IMO the best playing basses you'll find are the ones that look like they've been through hell and back.
Case and point - my good friend's 66 Jazz (he also has a matching P beat to hell that plays and sounds amazing). This thing plays like butter and hasn't been set up in years. It hasn't needed it.
I have no doubt this is true - I've seen it in other areas of vintage-ness. That's why I said "the right" vintage instrument. I have no difficulty believing that buying and selling guitars and basses as a serious investor, as in putting significant money into the enterprise in an ongoing way, is basically a full time job. One reason I don't own any, though I have some money to invest.
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