vintage = good? why ?

[5string5fingers]

Ultimately, if someone finds a guitar that is "the right one for them", it doesn't matter if it's a $100 SX or a $10,000 vintage Fender. Only their opinion matters, and if their opinion is that one (or the other) is right, then there is no need to justify the price.

But much of what Bongolation is saying is correct IMO - supply and demand is the main factor in driving a vintage instrument up in price, often to a level seen by many as "ridiculous". In the end though, something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If people willing to pay a couple hundred thousand bucks for a 59 Les Paul, then that is how much it is "worth".

+1 It's all economics 101. If I wanted a 77 trans am and someone was wanting 40 grand for one in good condition, I think its worth it I'm going to buy it,even though I could get a 2002 trans am,it would be newer,nicer,more reliable,and faster,but that's not what I want.

 

[Greevus]

I play beaters and cheaper basses, and to me, the "vintage" ones from '70s-'80s just seem to have been built better. Better woods, better quality, better pickups, finishes, etc. A "cheap" bass in the '80s was like $400-500. A cheap bass now is $100-200. Some of the guitars now are decent enough, but the older ones just sound and feel better to my ears. Now a "good" bass is in the $1-3 grand range. Back then, $600 was a good instrument. My point is that even the cheaper vintage guitars were made well compared to modern times. I'm also a fan of that vintage Fendery tone that is really simple. I think a lot of modern players really go for the more complex type basses, a la preamps, active circuitry, etc. I just don't think bass tones have really gotten that much better since the '80s.

 

[jgsbass]

Aside from the issue of "tone" - -


Old does not always mean good (heck, just look at me!). I am convinced that basses made by top builders today are orders of magnitude better than the best basses made in the '60s. It's just a matter of production technology and improved electronics.

That said, years ago I knew a guy who had worked at Fender who was the first one who suggested this theory to me: The reason old Fenders (as in Pre-CBS) are so cool is that all the poorly made ones have been 'weeded out' of the market (modified, destroyed, worn out) and only the ones that were good to begin with remain... Something to think about, I suppose.

This is indeed fact. Especially for basses. The beginnings of hotrodding Fenders started out of necessity. If your 62 Jazz Bass developed a neck issue ( lets say around 1968) that rendered it unplayable, you had to find another neck. Fender didn't offer necks for sale, only on a warantee covered "you send us the neck and we'll look at it and send you a new Fender neck if its indeed a warantee issue". There was no aftermarket pickups available either. You bought another bass, swapped for a good neck, sold or parted out the other body. This tended to eliminate a lot of dog basses. Only the strong ( and good sounding/feeling) parts survived. The others were used in organ transplants to save other basses. All through the 70's people were modifying their basses by adding other Fender parts ( as they came up for sale) until in the mid 70's aftermarket merchandise became available. First pickups (Dimarzio comes to mind) and then ESP had Fender compatable necks and bodies. Stars, Mighty Mite a few others I'm forgetting. But the point is they dumped "vintage parts for modern improved performance. To either improve the sound or the feel, no one ever thought about future value. How did it play right now was ( and always should be) the concern. By the 80's, Fender style was losing a big share of recording sessions to custom instruments that had preamps, recorded well ( clean, no noise) and filled a different sonic space because the beginnings of analog synth on everything was taking place. So in essence, bad Fenders were trashed, or dissected, good Fenders were snatched up as investment pieces, road dogs continued to give their owners the touch and tone they loved. Its all good. Most people who have difficulty with this concept have probably never played a good, well set up older Fender from the days. Its almost like sex: If I told you how good it would be when you were 8 or 9, you would have thought I was nuts( ...you put what, where? Why?..) Don't have to explain it to any of you at this age. Maybe its an acquired taste, maybe it is a sentimentality issue with some of us ...errr...elders, but nothing compares to the comfort of a well set up vintage player, modified or not.

 

[Bongolation]

I have no difficulty believing that buying and selling guitars and basses as a serious investor, as in putting significant money into the enterprise in an ongoing way, is basically a full time job. One reason I don't own any, though I have some money to invest.

As an "investment," I would recommend almost anything but vintage instruments.

I mean, if you run across a lovely all-original pre-CBS stack-knob Jazz at a rural estate sale for $300, by all means get it and store it well...but if you are going to pay market price for a good, 100% professionally-authenticated piece, it's going to be a long time before you double your money.

Don't "invest" in sexy stuff that you already know is in a corrupt and overheated market just because it's exciting to you.

I'm a huge advocate of people buying and selling stuff to generate "black" income and develop expertise, but it doesn't make sense to paddle around in shark-infested waters where even the sharks are eating each other.

Investment is about making money, period. Doesn't matter with what as long as it makes sense.

My next-door neighbor is a really neat guy. He's from Niger and had high hopes of doing custom woodworking, his "passion." However, he accidentally discovered that he can make more money flipping specific power tools about which he's developed expertise (notably Delta bandsaws) than he'll ever make on "sexy" woodworking. He'll buy a bandsaw on CraigsList, tune it up, maybe replace the blade or tires from his eBay suppliers and put it back on CraigsList a few days later and double his money on it, and all he's done is put a couple of leisurely hours into spiffing it up after work. He knows the stock and he knows his market -- perfectly.

Exciting? Well, maybe not, but it's fun for him and his profits are predictable and nearly approaching what he makes in his day job.

If you want to make money with instruments, it's far easier to do by reselling modern gear on which you've gotten very good deals. You'll make more doing this -- if you know your stuff -- than you will "investing" in dubious vintage instruments.

 

[megadan]

Simple, really. Besides "hype" there's only one concrete reason that vintage is better: it's been stress tested. repeatedly. If an amp hasn't died after 30+ years of abuse, it's probably not going to die on you now.

 

[eggfan]

the beginnings of analog synth on everything was taking place.

I think you meant to say "digital."
Edit: To say, then again, maybe not.

 

[jgsbass]

I think you meant to say "digital."

Nope, analog. Oberheim fat and Moog thick. Under digital control finally ( ahh, saving presets) that sound was on everything. DX7 was just beginning to emerge but its strong point was its chimy-ness/ tinklyness. Horrible piano but excellent Rhodes shimmer. Horns were not that thick but it did guitars and basses well because of the extended harmonics

 

[Rune Bivrin]

I have absolutely nothing to add to the discussion about "vintage"; it's a concept that I've never really concerned myself with. I'd just like to give a big Thank you! to the OP for clueing me in on Dizzy Mizz Lizzy. Awesome!

 

[eggfan]

Nope, analog. Oberheim fat and Moog thick. Under digital control finally ( ahh, saving presets) that sound was on everything. DX7 was just beginning to emerge but its strong point was its chimy-ness/ tinklyness. Horrible piano but excellent Rhodes shimmer. Horns were not that thick but it did guitars and basses well because of the extended harmonics

Yeah, sorry - literally 10 minutes before posting that I splashed myself with hot oil while browning the meat for a pot roast and the pain blocked out the bassline from "Steppin' Out" by Joe Jackson.
Though I did prefer the Jupiter 8 to the Oberheim sound - ah, "Rosanna." I was one of the first kids on my college block to have a DX-7, actually, purchased in '85 at Manny's I think. Never did think that Rhodes sound was all that Fender-y, though it established itself as an electronic piano texture in its own right. Correct about the crappy horn textures, though the strings were OK. Plus it was touch sensitive. Never learned to prefer the digital stuff to analog, though I did prefer the ease of rack mounting to dealing with my CS-80.

 

[nicfargo]

When it comes to vintage guitars and basses, I don't get it either. I don't see how a Jazz made in the 70's is going to sound better then a jazz made today. There have been advances in electronics, machining, etc. Sure, you may not get a paper & oil cap anymore, but if that's really the biggest difference, you can buy those still from certain places. One would think that a '08 Jazz would have to sound better, or at least the same, as a 70's Jazz. Now, if you're really into the aged look, and the finishes they used back then and how they've aged, then I get it. I think old cars that have been upkept look way better then the crap put out today...but that's a matter of taste on how something looks. I guess I just don't get the point of paying 3k for a 1k bass :-/

 

[crusie]

I have absolutely nothing to add to the discussion about "vintage"; it's a concept that I've never really concerned myself with. I'd just like to give a big Thank you! to the OP for clueing me in on Dizzy Mizz Lizzy. Awesome!

haha no problem - we actually play a fair bit of their stuff when out gigging - totally crowdpleasers here in DK. although band doesn't exist anymore, guitarist/singer Tim Christensen went solo to make more pop oriented music - still good, just not the same.
This year Dizzy mizz Lizzy is doing a danish tour, to please the fans, and to make money I guess. only Tim has been successful after the break-up. I'm going to one of their concerts the 2nd of april, really looking forward to it.

anyways on the matter at hand, thanks guys for all your input - hoping you wont think "troll" of me because of this topic - but I just needed to somewhat understand why people would buy vintage instruments. It's a bit more clear now, yet I would never do it myself, just because it's vintage, I'd rather have a nice playing bass, than one with mojo.

 

[deliciouspesto]

When it comes to vintage guitars and basses, I don't get it either. I don't see how a Jazz made in the 70's is going to sound better then a jazz made today. There have been advances in electronics, machining, etc. Sure, you may not get a paper & oil cap anymore, but if that's really the biggest difference, you can buy those still from certain places. One would think that a '08 Jazz would have to sound better, or at least the same, as a 70's Jazz. Now, if you're really into the aged look, and the finishes they used back then and how they've aged, then I get it. I think old cars that have been upkept look way better then the crap put out today...but that's a matter of taste on how something looks. I guess I just don't get the point of paying 3k for a 1k bass :-/

play one, they feel and sound different.

 

[Aspidites]

I need to see that movie someday.

 

[michael_atw]

Personal opinion. It is neither "right" nor "wrong". It is merely a persons opinion.

What sounds good to me may not sound good to you...and vice versa.

(BTW - this thread happens 3-5 times a week on average, so a "search" will get you more than enough information...and arguments )

That's all we need to say. /thread.

 

[Spencer!]

Lots of basses from the 60's sound great. Many basses made today also sound great, but it's a different kind of great.

 

[flypejose]

here's one for you funk lovers out there



I haven't tried it yet but I'm pretty sure that a modern bass would sound not so interesting if recorded with the 60's equipments.

 

[Greevus]

Some pretty great bass tones came out of the '60s, '70s, and '80s. I would bet some modern basses would sound fantastic on some vintage analog gear.

 

[king_biscuit]

Have we proven that vintage instruments sound better? Not better? I don't know what to think anymore This whole discussion is silly. People are buying vintage instruments because they are cool, and people like to collect. Me too! There is NOTHING wrong with that if you can afford it. My 76 Jazz does happen to sound a lot better than any of the two dozen or so other Jazz basses I have owned, so there's that. Now how much are people paying that fat moron Dumble to build amps?

 

[flypejose]

Old does not always mean good (heck, just look at me!).

LOL! My laugh of the day!

 

[flypejose]

I just don't think bass tones have really gotten that much better since the '80s.

+1