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Vintage vs new.

#103
bachlover said:
Aside from the treatments, the only other difference is one's made in Indonesia (like ESPs which are awesome IMO) and the other in Japan.
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Except for the fact that two identical instruments made of the same materials can come of the same line and sound very different. There are so many contributing variables and interactions between those variables, it's not possible to definitively state which effects are attributable to which combination of variables.

Sometimes it works great, sometimes not, most times it's good enough for jazz. :)
 
#104
mongo2 said:
LOL...I guess I must have the 3 good Silvertones. :eek:

For the last decade or so I've usually used them at home but I took one out to gig last weekend and I got more positive responses on the bass and sound than with any bass I've used recently (except for my DIY washtub) and it was a heck of a lot fun to play it out so I think I may take them out more.

I also have the more recent Danelectro RIs (1st wave) and Jerry Jones versions, but I find them to be very different.
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I will concede this: An old Silvertone now has Kitsch value that it did not originally have, and kitsch can be fun, and fun is good.
 
#105
Unfortunately, a huge percentage of the truly pristine and incredible vintage Fenders have been scarfed up by collectors. It's a shame really.

So now we have "mojo" and "road worn" vintage Fenders - which to me amounts to "B" and "C" level basses being sold at "A" prices.

One man's holy grail is another man's yawn.

BassHappy
www.innertainment.net
 
#106
People want to feel good about their own purchasing decisions and some with go to considerable lengths to justify their decision.

This happens at every level with guitars, amps, recording gear,
cars, computers, homes, you name it.

My VW is every bit as good as your Porsche because it gets me down the road at the same speed as you during rush hour for 1/5 the cost.
 
#107
FFTT said:
This explains why my pickups sound different than newer
vintage style pickups, also why I can hear more of the natural woody tone of the bass.

Why do Vintage Fender Pickups Sound so Good?
There are probably a lot of little factors that make the older Fender pickups sound so good. Not a single one of these factors will change the tone significantly. But when all added together, the sum of the parts is better on older vintage Fender pickups. These factors would include:

Magnets: pre-1965 Fender pickups used larger diameter magnets and were sand casted. Also vintage Fender magnets are Alnico and not Ceramic. Finally, as time goes on older magnets lose some of their power. The less power the magnets have, the better the strings can vibrate. Powerful magnets can actually pull the strings towards the pickup, dampering the vibrations. So there needs to be a balance, because you don't want too strong or too weak magnets. So maybe after 30 years, the magnets are at their "ideal" power, thus producing "ideal" tone. Another thing that is different is the "stagger" pattern. That is, the height of the individual magnet pole pieces. For example, today no one uses a wound third (G) string. But prior to Hendrix, most players did. To compensate for this, the fixed magnet heights were different on older Fender pickups.
Windings: handwound pickups (like pre-1965 Fenders) seem to sound better. It's hard to say why, but the scatter-winding pattern and tension at which the wire was wound was apparently ideal on pre-1965 Fender pickups. The handwinding tonal difference may be due to a lack of distributed capacitance when scatter-wound.
Wire Insulation: the insulation on the windings of vintage Fender pickups have different chemical composition than newer wire. Even though the gauge of the actual wire is the same, the thickness and composition of the insulation is different. This changes the total size of the wound windings. This in turn changes the inductance and capacitance of the pickup, and hence the tone. Fender used Formvar insulation till about March 1964. Then they switched to Plain Enamel insulation.
Pots: the older potentiometers used have wider tolerences than newer pots. This may sound dumb, but it could change the tone slightly.
the Guitar itself: older instruments have older and harder finishes. And they also used nitrocellulose finishes that were applied very thin. Also the wood itself is older and different than wood today (less polution back then means "cleaner" wood). This will also effect tone.
Time: even if all the above are paid attention to and duplicated, time is something that just can't be made up for. Maybe they sound better because they are just older...

There lots more here, great reference.

Link Removed
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I don't think vintage pickups sound better than newer pickups. That aside, all that ^^ stuff is baseless conjecture. The kind of made up non-science that someone who doesn't understand electronics or metallurgy would come up with.

Some of the real howlers - "hand wound pickups sound better" - "sand cast magnets" - "wire insulation" - and my personal favorite..."The less power the magnets have, the better the strings can vibrate". Comedy gold.
 
#110
Senseless arguments. Put me in a room with a few top notch Pre CBS fenders and some new ones. Blind fold me and at the end of the day if I pick out a new one I'd be happy to buy it.

Simple as that.

I have what I think is a really nice fender. If I played one that I thought was better I'd buy it. Now I can't afford a $24k bass so let's hope I don't have to make that decision.

I'm not sure anybody needs to be right or wrong here.
 
#111
peterpalmieri said:
I'd love to believe that I could take a squire and throw some Custom Shop pickups and new strings and call it a pre CBS bass.

If that works for you more power to you.
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I don't think anyone suggested that you "call it" a pre-CBS bass.

But I own a pre-CBS Precision and I assure you that I have inexpensive basses that sound every bit as good.
 
#113
Personally, I don't really care if my next bass is new, or "vintage". I decided many years ago to make a list of what I wanted, and to get those. Some are specific make and model (Rick 4001, Gibson T-Bird, for example); some are types (active, or short scale hollowbody). Since I'm a lefty, it's been a long hunt for some of them. Aluminum necked Kramer, for example, or a 4001 Rick, means it has to be "vintage". My Thunderbird, by contrast, is brand new. But, I don't particularly prefer either new or vintage over the other. Do prefer "well made" over "cheap POS", though. :)
 
#114
I own and play a variety of vintages. (of bass guitar) Oldest being '64, newest made within a year of today. They all look, play and sound great, otherwise I wouldn't own them. I have favorites, ones I reach for first/play more, but I enjoy playing them all. (each one is unique in a number of ways) I enjoy seeing/studying all kinds of bass guitars, especially the ones in hi-def guitar-porn spreads, or ones posted on tb threads. I enjoy the history and appreciate the designs, innovations and craft.

I wish the concept of "vs" would just go away. Who needs it.
 
#117
smcd said:
I don't think vintage pickups sound better than newer pickups. That aside, all that ^^ stuff is baseless conjecture. The kind of made up non-science that someone who doesn't understand electronics or metallurgy would come up with.

Some of the real howlers - "hand wound pickups sound better" - "sand cast magnets" - "wire insulation" - and my personal favorite..."The less power the magnets have, the better the strings can vibrate". Comedy gold.
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You are fully entitled to your opinion.

I am also fully entitled to ignore your opinion.
 
#118
Pilgrim said:
But I own a pre-CBS Precision and I assure you that I have inexpensive basses that sound every bit as good.
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Very interesting. So what does the pre-CBS Precision offers that the more modern inexpensive basses don't have?
Is it the feel? The mojo? The vibrancy? The comfort?

If you own such an expensive instruments there must be something very special that compels you to do so otherwise I have the feeling you would have long sold it.
 
#119
SanDiegoHarry said:
I'm going purely by first hand observation - I was there, as an active musician and gear buyer in the late '70s / early '80s and what Fender did during those years (until the mid-'80s turnaround) was just a shame. They sold some of the worst gear I have ever seen, period. Guitars, basses, amps - all of it was just caca. I was (and am) very pleased that they reversed course, but to deny the fact that they had a period where they made bad instruments is just... not true. Yes, I know - in 2014, anything that's 30 years old MUST be "vintage" - well, not all vintages are good. There is a reason that first bass I bought AFTER I had my '77 Jazz bass was NOT a Fender because Fender was stagnant and *bad* at that time. Would I own a 1990 Fender? Sure. I've owned a few mid '90s Fenders - they're fine instruments, for mass produced gear.

As for how an instrument sounds - well, engineers can work miracles, and the ear is very subjective - but I'm really talking about workmanship and how an instrument plays. I feel pretty confident that if I could take a 2014 stock AM std J bass, time travel to 1977 and show it off, it would *blow folks away*.
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This has to be bigoldharry with a new name. I was there too, and there were some bad ones and some good ones. I have late model basses and some older ones, and have had a bunch of Jazz basses including several 60s era Jazzes. My 76 Jazz is my favorite Jazz bass I've ever owned or played. You have to judge each bass as an individual, and not group everything together from a particular period. btw, the so-called Fender turnaround started in 81 with the beginning of the reissue stuff, and I have a couple of the Fullerton reissues which are wonderful instruments.
 

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