Double Bass Vivaldi Cello Sonatas - Continuo

[Steve Freides]

Background and Ramble:

I seem to be encountering these everywhere I turn lately. As student of mine is playing #3, I and II, for an audition. I will be his accompanist.

A former student needed to hear the accompaniment for #2 for an audition, so played through those with her and we recorded the piano part.

We could have a big discussion of how to realize a Baroque continuo part on the piano - that's OK, but I know a decent amount about that and want to ask some questions about these sonatas in particular.

I know they were written for cello and continuo, or was it two cellos? The music on IMSLP says Cello I and Cello II.

The realized continuo parts in the two editions I have are both way too busy, IMHO. The Schirmer is OK, and the International is realized by none other than Luigi Dallapiccola, freakin' Luigi Dallapiccola, and it's _way_ weird in my opinion.

I am, at that point, going to just realize the continuo part myself.

Question:

Does anyone know if these ever existed as figured bass? The cello II part seems to be unfigured wherever I've found it. I have half a mind just to play the Cello II part on bass.

-S-

 

[neilG]

I haven't seen the originals. Many times, composers would write "Sonatas for X and continuo, OR cello or bassoon or bass viol". Even when not specified, it's considered historically accurate to use a bass instrument when there's no keyboard available. The only alternative is not to play the piece at all, and that doesn't sell music.
Unless you can find copies of the manuscript, you won't know if Vivaldi wrote figures into his bass lines. This edition has them, but the editor may have written them in. Cello Sonata in A minor, RV 43 (Vivaldi, Antonio) - IMSLP/Petrucci Music Library: Free Public Domain Sheet Music
It's not unusual for a composer to have written bass lines without figure. I have many examples of manuscripts that show this to be true. An accomplished keyboardist of the time would have been expected to render an accompaniment with or without figures.

The Dallapiccola arrangements are awful. I'd rather hear it accompanied by DB any day.

 

[Michael Glynn]

I think they were originally written with unfigured bass parts. There are urtext editions from Bärenreiter and Wiener Urtext Edition that probably have the best info. The Wiener Urtext Edition has figured bass parts (figures from an 18th century source) for at least some of the sonatas. I've played the E minor sonata with just two basses and it sounded nice.

 

[Steve Freides]

I'm not terribly accomplished but even I can realize this bass without figures. We all had to be able to do this to graduate from Mannes, and since I later taught theory there, I damn well better be able to do it. I do know it's not usual to find an unfigured bass. My issue is that I've got someone's realization and I want to know which way Vivaldi left it to us.

The IMSLP page linked to is one I've visited several times lately - the version I printed out is unfigured and says its for two celli.

This Invalid Link Removed

doesn't have figures in any of the sample pages - am I looking at the right thing here? That's what I found when I searched on Wiener Urtext Edition of these.

-S-

 

[neilG]

On that same page is an old Ricordi edition.

 

[Michael Glynn]

I'm not terribly accomplished but even I can realize this bass without figures. We all had to be able to do this to graduate from Mannes, and since I later taught theory there, I damn well better be able to do it. I do know it's not usual to find an unfigured bass. My issue is that I've got someone's realization and I want to know which way Vivaldi left it to us.

The IMSLP page linked to is one I've visited several times lately - the version I printed out is unfigured and says its for two celli.

This Invalid Link Removed

doesn't have figures in any of the sample pages - am I looking at the right thing here? That's what I found when I searched on Wiener Urtext Edition of these.

-S-

The first sample page I'm seeing (Sonata I, RV 47) is figured bass. The interface is a little funky, so make sure you aren't hitting the right arrow.

Try this: Invalid Link Removed

 

[Steve Freides]

Michael, your link and mine are the same - I didn't notice the figures, in part because they're above and not below the music. I don't think I've ever seen that before.

Neil, thank you very much. I've just downloaded that old Ricordi edition and it looks like what I was looking for. I'm going to print it out and have a go at the keyboard with it. I like that there is an editor's realization but in small notes so that one can have the best of both worlds in terms of improvising the realization or not. Let me say 'thank you' again! I should have noticed that on my own....

What I now want is to find someone's doctoral dissertation on these that would shed light on the original sources without having to do all that homework myself.

There is, btw, a guitar version on the IMSLP page as well, and I find it strange - it's just the two cello lines without any added voicing to fill in the texture, a job for which the guitar is well-suited. I could create a guitar version and upload it - yeah, in my spare time, which I would like to have ...

(Classical guitar was my first major in college. I dropped out and came back as a voice major and then a choral conductor.)

-S-

 

[neilG]

This is purported to be the first edition (1740) of the sonatas. Invalid Link Removed
The only question I have is why did he publish his music in Paris?

 

[Steve Freides]

Neil G, I definitely owe you at least a beer. How did you find that on IMSLP? (It will be a sad day for me if I'm getting too old to actually find stuff on the computer by myself ...)

Very interesting that the figures are _above_ the continuo part, as with the Universal edition of these.

-S-

 

[blikeng]

The urtext edition from Bärenreiter has a really interesting foreword. Apparently Vivaldi himself didn't care to write the figures for the continuo player. Something like - if you coudn't read it out of the bassline you should basically find something else to do ;-)

 

[neilG]

Neil G, I definitely owe you at least a beer. How did you find that on IMSLP? (It will be a sad day for me if I'm getting too old to actually find stuff on the computer by myself ...)

Next time I hit the East Coast I'll come by Ridgewood for that beer.

Very interesting that the figures are _above_ the continuo part, as with the Universal edition of these.

That's not unusual. It makes more sense that way because you build the chord from the bass up. It seems more "ergonomic". It also lets you keep the systems closer together, which would have made a difference back then, using fewer engraving plates and less paper.