Walking over changes??!!PLEASE HELP!!

[Bruce Lindfield]

Yeah, we wouldn't want to destroy future careers, you know, record deals, groupies, endorsements. You have to be careful about these things i.e. offering advice or sharing information because as we know, no one thinks for themselves or comes to their own conclusion as to what is good, bad, right or wrong for themselves.

Well I can see that was a "facetious" answer and it may seem funny to some - but I think there is a serious point about giving out advice, when you may not be "qualified" to do so...

So there are people on the DB side who are professional teachers and I would certainly trust their advice - others like Ed, Paul W etc. have posted examples of their playing and it is pretty obvious they know what they are talking about...!!

But many times I've seen things posted here on the BG side and it's pretty obvious to me, that the poster is inexperienced, not really sure about what they're saying and is probably just copying stuff from a website they've found...

Now this is apparent to me, but it's more important that those who are new to playing, get the best advice, as it can set you back many years - in the past we had no internet and I can remember getting bad advice that set me back a long way and I feel that a big part of what is good about TB is that you do have some very experienced players - but it's often difficult, with the sheer volume of posts, to sort out the wheat from the chaff!!

 

[Phil Smith]

Well I can see that was a "facetious" answer and it may seem funny to some - but I think there is a serious point about giving out advice, when you may not be "qualified" to do so...

So there are people on the DB side who are professional teachers and I would certainly trust their advice - others like Ed, Paul W etc. have posted examples of their playing and it is pretty obvious they know what they are talking about...!!

To me the process is pretty simple, if someone makes a suggestion about something to play, play it and trust your own ears. Ask yourself, is this the sound I'm looking for? Is it in the direction of the sound I'm looking for? Is it meaningful to me? This is what I do and what everyone should do, even when you're dealing with the "qualified". No one knows everything or has the goods on every style or even one style or genre. Everyone is coming from their own personal experience, which is why people sound different and like different things.

This thread was initiated by an individual that seemed to be desperate, and I can totally indentify with that because I've been there, which is why I posted what I did. No it's not the end all and be all to walking, but it's better than nothing when all you have is nothing. The most important thing is this, whether or not the original poster used this advice, came up with some other approach or didn't play on the tune, they at least felt that they could come here and get some kind of answer even if it isn't the perfect answer and was grateful for that.

 

[Pcocobass]

Because jazz is now an intellectual head game. Do you know of any college that offers a rock program? An R&B program? A latin program?



Probably because it's treated as classical music, it's not the pop-ular music of today as it was in 50 or more years ago when jazz tunes were the chart toppers.



Can't argue with this.

Good points, Phil. "Jazz Education" and the effects thereof is a whole nuther story. IMO, it shouln't and can't be taught like classical music...

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Good points, Phil. "Jazz Education" and the effects thereof is a whole nuther story. IMO, it shouln't and can't be taught like classical music...

Well it isn't!!

So, I started a degree in music (i.e. classical) which was deadly dull - but I have since been involved in a lot of Jazz education and there is an entirely different emphasis - there is some theory, but it is much more about actually playing with other people - listening and responding...etc. etc.

 

[akuma12]

For the original poster, I dunno if you still need help, but here's what my bass teacher has been showing me.

I had a real hard time getting walking lines in my head. There are so many rules on what to do and what not to do, I was just getting all jumbled up. My teacher (John Toedtman, fantastic teacher in the Cincinnati/Dayton Ohio area) really dumbed it down for me

When learning a new piece, I go through and play the Root, 3rd, 5th of each chord, and the leading tone to the next chord on the 4th beat of the measure. Mind you each chord can be played in a pattern. For a major triad, you can use


--|--|--|--|--|--
--|13|--|--|45|--
--|--|2R|--|--|--
--|--|--|--|--|--


With the first number indicating your finger, and the 2nd character indicating the part of the triad (R=root, 3=3rd, 5=5th). This pattern can be used for any major triad. For a minor triad, use


--|--|--|--|--|--
--|--|--|35|--|--
--|1R|--|--|43|--
--|--|--|--|--|--


Same deal here, just minor.
If you want to go down a major triad, going Root-5th-3rd, use this:


--|--|--|--|--|--
--|--|--|--|4R|--
--|13|--|--|45|--
--|--|--|--|--|--


Going down minor is very similar


--|--|--|--|--|--
--|--|--|--|3R|--
--|--|--|--|35|--
--|--|--|--|--|43


Now, knowing those 3 note patterns, you can make your way through the chord chart. Remember for the 4th beat, use a leading tone (usually a half step up or down from the next chord root).

Mind you this is super duper basic, but it's helped me to move in the right direction. Also remember that this is just for major and minor chords. You're also going to run into Diminished chords (1-b3-b5) so you can run a minor pattern with the 5th down a fret, as well as augmented chords (1-3-#5) so move the 5th up a fret.

Try to keep it as simple as possible at first, keep the beat, and try to stay with the chord changes. That's your most important role. Rhythmic embellishments are great, but if you lose the beat in the process, or get lost in the changes, it's not going to help the rest of the band at all. Good luck, especially with Four. I'm learning that tune as well, and it's a bitch

Jim

 

[geoffkhan]

Because jazz is now an intellectual head game. Do you know of any college that offers a rock program? An R&B program? A latin program?

It is, to some certain extent.

Do you think Herbie Hancock has to think "Okay, it's a major 7th chord, I think I'll use lydian" while he's playing? Ideally jazz should cease to be "intellectual head game" as you progress and come from the heart.

But yes, I agree, starting out in jazz is VERY intellectual.

 

[Phil Smith]

It is, to some certain extent.

Do you think Herbie Hancock has to think "Okay, it's a major 7th chord, I think I'll use lydian" while he's playing? Ideally jazz should cease to be "intellectual head game" as you progress and come from the heart.

But yes, I agree, starting out in jazz is VERY intellectual.

Herbie's too busy experimenting with sound, spontaneous composition and the like.

Interesting tid bit...

On the DVD "Future 2 Future" he is using a chart on Dolphin Dance.

 

[Aaron Saunders]

You're probably right.

It's just some ideas to get the guy started.

You realise he was in a panic and pleding.

Heroin addicts are often in a panic...and pleading for heroin. Would you give them a quick shot of heroin, or teach them how to make their own?

I'm trying to help, and I get humiliated.

If that's how you want to look at it, then go ahead.

I didn't see YOU providing some notation as an example.

Yep. Sounds about right.

Me no care, I'm outta this thread!

Goodbye

You know, that's a shame...you could've learned something.

 

[geoffkhan]

Herbie's too busy experimenting with sound, spontaneous composition and the like.

Lol, that's for sure!

 

[Aaron Saunders]

Knowing what your written out "jazz" sounds like, I don't think I'll be sweating the loss of THAT gig.

 

[Pcocobass]

In for the kill a?

You got it.

Just kidding. I meant no offense, but it is what it is...

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

What ever happened to the freedom to say "no I don't like that idea, I choose this idea instead"

Well the point I was making is that I know enough now to make an informed choice - but somebody else who is very new to all this is going to have difficulty picking the wheat from the chaff !

So I was saying that we should try to avoid confusing them unless we are 100% sure fo what we are saying and not let our egos get in the way of helping others - so I could have put my own point of view, but I was happy just to leave it to Ed, as I know his walking lines are (as I said) "the business"!!

Freedom to choose on idea over another, Bruce. that's what we're voting for isn't it?

There are no votes at stake here - you get nothing for sticking your oar in ....

I have never played the "I am right, you are wrong game". Unlike your self.
.

Well - as I have pointed out here, I have offered no actual advice in this thread and I defer to Ed - my only point to any newcomers who are doubtful, is to go over to the DB side, listen to the recorded examples of the regular members - decide whose playing you think you like - then take their advice!

 

[dlloyd]

I'm no expert, but I'm well versed in how not to go about playing walking basslines.

And I've been having some success lately in getting it right.

The first step would be to buy this...

And listen to the track. Percy Heath gets it right.

Try transcribing his line. It's pretty clear and at a fairly moderated speed so it shouldn't present too many difficulties. If it does, download the "Amazing Slow Downer" software from ronimusic...

http://www.ronimusic.com/

And play it slower.

In terms of actually understanding what you're doing, there are a number of books available that explain the different approaches you can use to create walking lines. I like Ed Friedland's book...

 

[dlloyd]

Another good resource is the Jamey Aebersold playalongs. They have the bass and piano stereo separated, so you can just play along with the piano and drums.

They're obviously slightly artificial, as the other musicians can't react to what you're playing, but it's better than nothing.

Four is included in volume 7 at two speeds...

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

www.aebersold.com

 

[Phil Smith]

Well the point I was making is that I know enough now to make an informed choice - but somebody else who is very new to all this is going to have difficulty picking the wheat from the chaff !

So I was saying that we should try to avoid confusing them unless we are 100% sure fo what we are saying and not let our egos get in the way of helping others - so I could have put my own point of view, but I was happy just to leave it to Ed, as I know his walking lines are (as I said) "the business"!!

All anyone can do is offer their idea and it's the responsibility of the reader to decide if the information works for them or not. As far as this thread is concerned, we're talking about the original poster who seemed to be grateful to have any information because they had nowhere to start. We don't know the outcome of that because that person has not returned to the thread.

Your assesment of the information is going to be colored by whatever your agenda is and by whatever idea you have of what should be covered, not covered, all based on your personal view of the world and how you fit inside of it, according to you of course.

Well - as I have pointed out here, I have offered no actual advice in this thread and I defer to Ed - my only point to any newcomers who are doubtful, is to go over to the DB side, listen to the recorded examples of the regular members - decide whose playing you think you like - then take their advice!

Yes, you haven't offered any advice but you have offered criticism devoid of any alternative and when I say alternative I mean information, insights, your own practices, i.e. what you do.

On the face of it, this last thing that you've posted seems very reasonable, but in actuality what will a newcomer experience if they took the advice that you posted? More often or not the first question would be "Do you have a teacher?", which is all good unless of course you're conflicted by what your teacher has told you or your teacher is on tour for the next month or so, or maybe you just need some information because Jazz isn't the genre that you play all that often and have one or two tunes that you need to play and sound reasonably correct without having to take on a full course of study, etc, etc.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

You missed my point - I was saying - go to the DB side, listen to Ed Fuqua's playing (for example), then decide if that's what you want to aspire to and therefore, take the advice given by that person, in this thread !

 

[dlloyd]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Just listened to the CD that comes with that... Rufus Reid's bassline on Four is amazing.

 

[dlloyd]

I'm in a desperate situation so any help would be GREATLY appreciated!Can anyone tell me how to walk over Ebmaj7 for 2 measures, then Bbmi7 for 1, Eb7 for 1, Abmaj7 for 2 Abmin7 for one, Db7 for 1, Ebmaj7 for one, F#mi7/B7, Fmin7 for one, Bb7 for one, Ebmaj7 for one,F#mi7/B7,Fmin7 for one,Bb7 for one, Gmi7 for one,F#mi7/B7,Ebmaj7 for 2. PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE!!!Help
Thanks

This has been bothering me a bit... those are the Real Book changes to Four, if I'm not mistaken.

They're pretty wrong. And using them to walk will sound wrong (IMHO).

Here they are, rewritten so I can read them...

|Ebmaj7___|_________|Bbm7_____|Eb7______|
|Abmaj7___|_________|Abm7_____|Db7______|
|Ebmaj7___|F#m7_B7__|Fm7______|Bb7______|
|Ebmaj7___|F#m7_B7__|Fm7______|Bb7______|
|Gm7_____|F#m7_B7__|Ebmaj7___|_________|

The blue bits are the wrong chords. The red bit, I think, is supposed to replace the last line on the repeat. I don't have my Real Book to hand.

Here are better changes...

|Ebmaj7___|_________|Ebm7_____|Ab7______|
|Fm7______|_________|Abm7_____|Db7______|
|Ebmaj7/G_|F#m7_B7__|Fm7______|Bb7______|
|Ebmaj7/G_|F#m7_B7__|Fm7______|Bb7______|

|Ebmaj7___|_________|Ebm7_____|Ab7______|
|Fm7______|_________|Abm7_____|Db7______|
|Ebmaj7/G_|F#m7_B7__|Fm7______|Dm7b5_G7_|
|Cm7_Gbm7_Cb_|Fm7_Bb7__|Ebmaj7___|Fm7__Bb7_|


And, to be honest, when you're supposed to play

|Ebmaj7/G_|F#m7_B7__|Fm7______|Bb7______|

I play...

|Gm7_____|F#m7_____|Fm7______|Bb7______|

Edit: (Which incidentally is the way the Aebersold volume has it)

 

[dougjwray]

Well, I'll put on my armor and enter this minefield.
It looks to me as though the original poster was looking for emergency help to make it through one tune, maybe on one gig, and it turned into a major war because so many people got philosophical about it. The discussion was fascinating to me (no lie) but I don't think the poor guy was asking how to master the art of walking. I believe that it's a lifetime pursuit, one that's fascinating to engage in. But some of the answers started to become like answering "How do I spell 'cat?'" with "First read all of Shakespeare's works and then try writing an Elizabethan tragedy yourself."
I know it's always tempting for people who love what they do, and love teaching, to go off, but the original question wasn't "How do I best spend the rest of my life learning how to walk like Ray Brown?"
Just my $.02, of course.

 

[Pcocobass]

Well, I'll put on my armor and enter this minefield.
It looks to me as though the original poster was looking for emergency help to make it through one tune, maybe on one gig, and it turned into a major war because so many people got philosophical about it. The discussion was fascinating to me (no lie) but I don't think the poor guy was asking how to master the art of walking. I believe that it's a lifetime pursuit, one that's fascinating to engage in. But some of the answers started to become like answering "How do I spell 'cat?'" with "First read all of Shakespeare's works and then try writing an Elizabethan tragedy yourself."
I know it's always tempting for people who love what they do, and love teaching, to go off, but the original question wasn't "How do I best spend the rest of my life learning how to walk like Ray Brown?"
Just my $.02, of course.

LOL
I love this reply - you're definately right. And, as one of the main suspects in this thread, I see your point. But, at least, if this guy does wanna be the next RB, he's got some good info to put him on the right track, and so does anyone else checking this out...

PS The Shakespeare thing is classic...