Walking over changes??!!PLEASE HELP!!

[geoffkhan]

DEAFCON - I have to disagree. Playing a walking bass line is about moving the harmony forward and, if you are playing a quarter note line, the thing that moves the harmony forward is NOTE CHOICE. You can play all the triplets, ghosts, pickups, anticipations, rakes etc. that you want, but if you can't make a line of simple quarter notes swing by choosing notes that lead logically to the next change and the next and the next ad infinitum, you haven't a hope in hell of making a line swing by adding more crap to it.

All I was really trying to say IMO is that the rhythm matters more than note choice. If it doesn't groove, I don't care if you're playing the "right notes." Anyways, just my opinion. I tend to put rhythm and feel first.

It also has to do with style and personal preference, too. Some styles of jazz demand a more melodic walking bass I've noticed.

In my previous post I wrote a few little tricks of walking bass (i.e. the open string rake technique). I said nothing about cluttering the bassline with these. They're just common techniques that bassists incorperate.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

And they're common vocabulary "tics" most players (especially newish one) employ to "try" to get a line to swing.

What styles of jazz don't demand a "melodic" walking line?

If it doesn't groove, I don't care if you're playing the "right notes."

Well, that's kind of my point. Groove, forward propulsion, motion, swing, whatever you want to call it. You get a line played with that intent and meaning, it moves the song forward. And you should be able to that playing unaccented, even quarter notes with a metronome; you should be able to hear the harmonic motion of the tune, feel the forward propulsion and hear the melodic content. And if it's that clear playing by yourself with a nome, then it's gonna be that clear to everybody else on the stand. And the music moves.

Hey, you go ahead and keep doing what works for you. All I can talk about is what was a dead end for me and what wasn't.

 

[Phil Smith]

But then, on the next tune, somebody says : "let's make it easy - Blues in F" and the approach you described there, is going to sound very "stilted".... at best!

He didn't ask how to walk over the blues, but if he had I would have recommened playing root 7th, 6th and 4th when going down a fourth as opposed to going up a fourth. But again, it's not the be all and the end all, just a starting place for one to have somewhere to start. They still need to listen, listen, listen, play, play, play.

 

[geoffkhan]

Hey, you go ahead and keep doing what works for you. All I can talk about is what was a dead end for me and what wasn't.

Well, it seems that we have the same viewpoint concerning rhythm, and some different viewpoints on other matters. I'm still young in age and experience, I'm certain I'll hit dead ends and change my mind on issues.

Your input is, and always is, very valuable. Even though I don't necessarily share some of your beliefs, I'm sure your advice is making an impact on me that will help me in the future.

So I'm going to go work on it and think about it. I feel that I need to gain more experience with walking bass before offering people advice -- when there are others who have done it for much longer and therefore can give better advice.

 

[Wrong Robot]

Well, that's kind of my point. Groove, forward propulsion, motion, swing, whatever you want to call it. You get a line played with that intent and meaning, it moves the song forward. And you should be able to that playing unaccented, even quarter notes with a metronome; you should be able to hear the harmonic motion of the tune, feel the forward propulsion and hear the melodic content. And if it's that clear playing by yourself with a nome, then it's gonna be that clear to everybody else on the stand. And the music moves..

Man, that is a thing of beauty right there. I have an iffy relationship with jazz, but what you just said reminded me of everything that I do I love about it.

 

[Phil Smith]

Well, that's kind of my point. Groove, forward propulsion, motion, swing, whatever you want to call it. You get a line played with that intent and meaning, it moves the song forward. And you should be able to that playing unaccented, even quarter notes with a metronome; you should be able to hear the harmonic motion of the tune, feel the forward propulsion and hear the melodic content. And if it's that clear playing by yourself with a nome, then it's gonna be that clear to everybody else on the stand. And the music moves.

I'm sorry Ed, I just cannot let this go without challenging it. He's a little story...

I went to the Jazz Standard one evening to see Frank Fosters big band and a Japanese big band was the opening act. It was a full big band, four trumpet, four saxes, four trombones. The blend of the instruments and the harmonies were great, just one problem, they weren't swinging. Now, I didn't get a chance to see the lines that the bassist was playing so it could have been his fault i.e. he wasn't playing a line that was moving the harmony forward or there was one on the paper and he was playing something else. Frank Foster's big band comes on with half the personnel of the horn section, I thing there was 8 people in the group that night, they swang like crazy, their sound was HUGE compared to the other band.

You need more than the right notes. When you talk about intent and meaning, to me that translates to dynamics and placement of notes in time or playing with conviction. Intent and meaning are things that the audience feel when you play, it isn't an intellectual thing, it's primal.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

It's not an either-or thing, IMO, and I don't see any point for arguing that it's either all about the notes or all about the rhythm. Refuse to choose: go for both and don't shortchange either.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

If it doesn't groove, I don't care if you're playing the "right notes."

But then, if your note choice is lame, I don't care how good your groove is....

 

[geoffkhan]

But then, if your note choice is lame, I don't care how good your groove is....

Tell that to Kenny Werner.

In countless workshops he does his demonstration of where he solos over All The Things You Are a half-step up. Anyways, you really have to see/hear it for yourself. I was blown away by how much rhythm and intent has to do with it. Kenny Werner's an amazing musician, definitely check him out if you haven't already.

 

[geoffkhan]

It's not an either-or thing, IMO, and I don't see any point for arguing that it's either all about the notes or all about the rhythm. Refuse to choose: go for both and don't shortchange either.

I agree. So far in my posts I've been putting an emphasis on rhythm, but IMO the notes really do matter too, don't get me wrong.

A good mix of both.

 

[fraublugher]

I'm sorry Ed, I just cannot let this go without challenging it. He's a little story...

I went to the Jazz Standard one evening to see Frank Fosters big band and a Japanese big band was the opening act. It was a full big band, four trumpet, four saxes, four trombones. The blend of the instruments and the harmonies were great, just one problem, they weren't swinging. Now, I didn't get a chance to see the lines that the bassist was playing so it could have been his fault i.e. he wasn't playing a line that was moving the harmony forward or there was one on the paper and he was playing something else. Frank Foster's big band comes on with half the personnel of the horn section, I thing there was 8 people in the group that night, they swang like crazy, their sound was HUGE compared to the other band.

You need more than the right notes. When you talk about intent and meaning, to me that translates to dynamics and placement of notes in time or playing with conviction. Intent and meaning are things that the audience feel when you play, it isn't an intellectual thing, it's primal.

i suspect a geographic problem

 

[fraublugher]

Tell that to Kenny Werner.

In countless workshops he does his demonstration of where he solos over All The Things You Are a half-step up. Anyways, you really have to see/hear it for yourself. I was blown away by how much rhythm and intent has to do with it. Kenny Werner's an amazing musician, definitely check him out if you haven't already.

and what is All the Things .. ?

2/5's

see my first post

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Tell that to Kenny Werner.

In countless workshops he does his demonstration of where he solos over All The Things You Are a half-step up. Anyways, you really have to see/hear it for yourself. I was blown away by how much rhythm and intent has to do with it. Kenny Werner's an amazing musician, definitely check him out if you haven't already.

I'm familiar with Kenny Werner. He's one of the last musicians I'd accuse of lame note choice.

The fact that he can solo over All The Things 1/2 step up doesn't really prove anything, though. Even when you play deliberately outside a key, note choice matters.

 

[tkarter]

I asked a question way back up the list. Got no answer. The poster ask a question too. Got no answer.

There is not a teacher present in this thread.


tk

 

[Phil Smith]

just singing up to learn. also a question

Shouldn't that be a flat 3rd over the minors?

tk

The 3rd of the chord is the 3rd of whatever the chord is, if it's major it's a major 3rd, if it's minor it's a minor 3rd.

 

[Aaron Saunders]

The debate in this thread is, quite simply, probably the single most pointless one I've ever seen on TB (that includes the "which bass is more growly" ones over in the Basses section.)

No part -- rhythm, note choice, dynamics, attack, etc. -- is more important than the other. Thinking of them as being more or less important is the complete wrong way to look at it, because that's looking at them as forces that are competing, that you have to shortchange one to do the other well. They're all different things that make up part of the whole, and things that -- if you're paying attention to what you're playing, you've done your shedding time, and if (more importantly than the previous two) you're actually listening to the band, they'll support each other.

Situation A. You're playing Autumn Leaves, and you've shedded walking lines on this tune, know it harmonically inside and out, etc. It's a ballad this time, somewhere around the 17th solo chorus for the tenor, so you're holding back on the beat a bit, letting the horns lay in the centre of the big ol' pocket you're creating with the drummer using just your walking lines and him on his brushes with the ride and snare. It's a slow tempo, so you can really focus on your note choices, and make every one of them count. *This is where your walking line will "push the harmony forward.* You're coming up on that F#-7b5, only you think, "damn, lets get rid of that now," and decide nuts to that, I'll lead it into a -7 chord, so as to create a nice ii-V with it and the B7. The horn catches on and the entire dynamic of the band rises for a nice swell over that new ii-V. You do it, it sounds great, because everything is moving in sync with everything else, but most of all, because you did three things, and not a damn one of them had anything to do picking notes, playing behind the beat, or plucking harder. It's because you listened, listened, and listened.

I think we can ring that one up at at least 3 or 4 cents, so I'll stop writing. Plus, I can't really say I'm all that qualified to speak up this much, as my walking lines themselves are still pretty damn lame -- even on Autumn Leaves.

 

[Zebra]

Have you read any of this thread? Like the first response???

Oh, was this directed at me? I should check here more often.
Yes, and it seems from my humble observations that, quite frankly, almost everythig said after your post was useless to the topic. While it may have to do with the topic being adressed, it doesn't help that poor guy a bit.
And your post, while it certainly works, isn't a real walking bassline. It's playing the notes of the chords, but it's not walking.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I think we can ring that one up at at least 3 or 4 cents, so I'll stop writing. Plus, I can't really say I'm all that qualified to speak up this much, as my walking lines themselves are still pretty damn lame -- even on Autumn Leaves.

Well that's the thing....I've heard Ed's walking lines and they are "the business" (go over to DB side and you can easily find lots of MP3s of his playing)...so I would suggest he knows what he's talking of and that people would do well to listen....?

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Oh, was this directed at me? I should check here more often.
Yes, and it seems from my humble observations that, quite frankly, almost everythig said after your post was useless to the topic. While it may have to do with the topic being adressed, it doesn't help that poor guy a bit.
And your post, while it certainly works, isn't a real walking bassline. It's playing the notes of the chords, but it's not walking.

The problem is that beyond the very basic, you simply can't tell somebody how to walk changes in a forum post. Expecting much more than what the poster got, especially since he seems not to have accumulated much experience yet, is probably unrealistic.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

There is not a teacher present in this thread.

Did you sign up for lessons?