Wants to be payed for practices

[cnltb]

Hey all. I have been playing steady in the PHX area since ‘98, so it’s saying something when I say that this is a new one for me. I joined this “ Killers “ tribute band and we have been auditioning drummers for the last month or so. Had a drummer audition last Sunday, dude came prepared and pretty much nailed everything. Had a great conversation with him afterwords and he really liked what we were doing and wanted to be part of it. Sent him on his way and we all agreed that we should continue on with him, BL said he would call him the next day to offer him the position. Got a call from the BL the next day after he talked to this guy and he said the drummer had some “ conditions “. Come to find out, playing drums is all he does for making money and his “ conditions “ are, he wants a minimum of $150 a gig and expects to be payed $75 per practice for gas money. Like stated earlier, I have doing this a loooong time, been in many high/low profile bands and I have never heard of or expected to be payed for practicing! Many of my projects required a travel time of 45-60min and I never once felt like I should be payed to travel for practice, The $150 a gig is another thing that annoyed me, if we do not make $150 per member at a gig, tough ***** dude, we all take the time and effort per gig, and we all deserve an equal share. I expressed my concerns with BL and after a long conversation, he kind of agreed. The BL thinks that drummer is just trying to see what he can get out of us and is going to call him and express our concerns over his “ conditions “, basically calling his bluff. I think that drummer was good, but not that good. Have any of you guys/gals heard or experience this??

No reason to get worked up about this.
He's a service provider asking to get paid for the work he does. Nothing odd about this, I think.
If you are after a 'band member' in the sense, many understand this term, he may not be 'your guy'.

As to his attitude; If he didn't work this like a business, he wouldn't be able to make it his business. Good on him.

 

[Turn Em Loose]

Interesting topic, really. I have not gone through the whole thread but here's a few thoughts:

--Folks play music for different reason. It's much less stressful to realize this and not cast judgement on somebody who has a different reason or philosophy for playing music. If the drummer isn't right for your project, then so be it. I'm not sure what the big deal is.
--I've been in the drummer's situation before. Heck....I'm IN the drummer's situation in a few projects right now. Part of his asking price, being a seasoned professional, is dealing with musicians that are, to be blunt, below his level. He auditioned you guys as much as you auditioned him. "How much should I ask to play with these guys that, while nice enough and are easy to get along with, are below my skill level?" Conversely, recently I've taken on a new project that, more than likely, won't make any decent money. Why? Because most of the other players are a notch (or two) above MY skill level and I'm more than happy to show up on time and prepared and shut up and be able to play and learn from better musicians. (The project is a pet project for a couple of the guys and they recruited some top notch talent. And then there's me. ) My pay is I might make some contacts for the future if I can hang with these guys.
--I don't understand the thought process that professional musicians shouldn't make decent money. Why shouldn't a person with a skill and talent, honed and developed over a period of time, not ask for getting compensated for his skill, talent and time? $150/night at 5 nights a week equals $750/week. Times 50 weeks of work (a year minus two weeks for vacation) and that's $37,500. Before taxes and health insurance. That's peanuts. Especially if the guy has kids.

Anyway….my half a cent.

 

[monkeyland]

The $150 a gig is another thing that annoyed me, if we do not make $150 per member at a gig, tough ***** dude

Everyone seems to be focusing on the rehearsal part but this is the part that really stands out to me. To me a tribute band should be something more than an average bar gig rate. It's a show, not filling time while people drink. It gets booked for special events where people are coming specifically to see that show. That typically means that tributes don't work every night unless they are traveling, but it also means that the pay is significantly higher than a standard cover gig.

As someone who also makes my whole living in the entertainment industry, via both playing music and doing production work, I don't want to fill my evenings with gigs that don't pay well either. No matter how you slice it, there are only 7 nights in a week, which also relates to the rehearsal thing. Any time spent rehearsing is a night that I'm not making anything. A true pro knows this and does everything in his power to keep that time to a minimum(individual practice, don't waste others time, etc).

A job interview is not a one way street. If the interviewee is savvy he/she will also be trying to find out if the interviewer is someone that they want to work with.

 

[David Jayne]

Like many, I'm tired of shedding and charting only to find I'm now teaching somebody the music at 'rehearsal.' I won't do that for free anymore. I'm a bit flexible and take it on a case by case basis however.

 

[friskinator]

Do The Killers have enough material to have a dedicated tribute band?

Or enough fans?

 

[Sparkl]

Hey all. I have been playing steady in the PHX area since ‘98, so it’s saying something when I say that this is a new one for me. I joined this “ Killers “ tribute band and we have been auditioning drummers for the last month or so. Had a drummer audition last Sunday, dude came prepared and pretty much nailed everything. Had a great conversation with him afterwords and he really liked what we were doing and wanted to be part of it. Sent him on his way and we all agreed that we should continue on with him, BL said he would call him the next day to offer him the position. Got a call from the BL the next day after he talked to this guy and he said the drummer had some “ conditions “. Come to find out, playing drums is all he does for making money and his “ conditions “ are, he wants a minimum of $150 a gig and expects to be payed $75 per practice for gas money. Like stated earlier, I have doing this a loooong time, been in many high/low profile bands and I have never heard of or expected to be payed for practicing! Many of my projects required a travel time of 45-60min and I never once felt like I should be payed to travel for practice, The $150 a gig is another thing that annoyed me, if we do not make $150 per member at a gig, tough ***** dude, we all take the time and effort per gig, and we all deserve an equal share. I expressed my concerns with BL and after a long conversation, he kind of agreed. The BL thinks that drummer is just trying to see what he can get out of us and is going to call him and express our concerns over his “ conditions “, basically calling his bluff. I think that drummer was good, but not that good. Have any of you guys/gals heard or experience this??

I am a professional musician for example, come to every rehearsal with lead sheets prepared, practice every single song at home so we don't spend time learning stuff on rehearsals and yes, I usually expect to be paid for my work. This is my full time job and I need to pay the bills. It is pretty common to be demanding stuff like that.

I got numerous offers from people wanting to hire me and proposing to pay me for the rehearsals by themselves.

 

[Brad Johnson]

The way I see it it does matter that he explicitly said it was for gas because that shows he's happy to wildly exaggerate his expenses, so what other facts will he fudge? I don't want to do business with dishonest people. If he had simply said he expects to be paid then that would be honest and he could name any dollar amount. And use it to expand his spoon collection as he sees fit.

Here's the fundamental problem with this. What he wants the money for matters to you because you think he might be lying. The OP got that bullet point second hand. The drummer may have mentioned gas and only gas. He might have mentioned more but the BL didn't relay that to the OP. There's more than one way to look at it and you chose the negative one.

In one instance you don't want to do business with him because you're assuming his intent which you got third hand. Do you like to do business with people who leap to conclusions?

 

[mambo4]

Fascinating thread. I was offered rehearsal pay once, but I turned it down because I chose not to pursue the band after that one rehearsal. So, not unheard of for me. After reading this thread, I think I probably should have taken the money.

The best drummers I have played with have always been either paid or clearly capable of demanding pay for their time, but forgoing because they liked the music. They were always involved in multiple projects and seeking more. Their attitude to the buiseness side was quite mercenary, but musically they were always a blast to play with, executing flawlessly and tastefully.

Drummers who play at that level are worth money. I would count myself lucky if they didn't charge, but not unlucky if they did.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Fact is, it's not 1982. VERY few of us can list "musician" with a straight face. There are just are not that many jobs where a musician is going to get paid for rehearsal time. If the band is only paying $150/member per show (which seems quite low for a tribute), there isn't money to pay for rehearsals. Even bands making $5k per show won't, unless you cut the gig pay. Frankly, I'd rather get my fair share per gig. The less cutting up of the pie, the easier it is to make sure you get paid your share.

 

[lordradish]

Meanwhile, as a total amateur I’m over here being surprised by how MANY think of music as a business/job. I’ve always assumed there to be a negligible number of people making enough money at this to consider it anything but a hobby. Cool.

I think that's why there's so much disagreement in this thread. There's a lot of people on forums that simply don't exist in that pro world, it's a different mindset, completely, that they can't relate to. Maybe this is an eye-opener. I'm not surprised by the weekend warrior mindset, I've co-existed in that world, as well. But music, to some, is a payable skill, and is treated as such.

I'm in the middle, because I like using my skillset for fun/expression, but also to make money. The more I like the particular music, the less I care about the money. Want me to play classic rock or blues in a crappy bar? I'll do it, I'll kill it, but I gotta get paid, 'cuz that just ain't my idea of an optimal fun musical experience. Those who do that kinda stuff for the love, I respect it, but that ain't me.

 

[lordradish]

To pay for practising - that's ridiculously and for gas too. I can only understand this situation if this happens at recording process when a really pro, good musician is needed at studio.

If you need a pro for any situation, you pay them. I don't understand why that's so hard for people to understand.

 

[Brad Johnson]

He was so pro he spared you the trouble of firing him!

Nah it sounds like he's used to the corporate / wedding type circuit, the kind of stuff where the music budget is on an expense account. And that's cool, but the conversation could have happened faster.

Wedding/corporate gigging isn't about expense accounts. It's about what it takes to keep competent people working. I can't remember running into anyone on the circuit who was clueless about business. Or concerned with what others deals were.

 

[BwanaDust]

I always get paid for rehearsal. Even when I'm working solo.

 

[TexasEdition]

You, the band, and the drummer need to come to terms....

How is your band organized? Do you have a bussiness identity? (S-Corp / LLC?) Do you collect for gigs and pay players a share and keep a a percentage for the band?

If your aggrangement is no cash for practice and equal share per member per gig, then so be it and he can take it or leave it.

Or, you can decide what your goals are for a band and if the drummer is good enough to elevate the band to a level to get more gigs and into larger and better paying venues. That small investment up front may pay dividends later.

It's unusual, but not unheard of. I've been in groups where they made subsidies for people who traveled a long, long way.

Another thought, if he is that good and well prepared.... Limit his practice to 1 before the next gig and cap his gig share to subsidise his practice costs.

 

[David Jayne]

This guy's a pro but didn't know before the audition that the gig did not meet his requirements? How does that happen?

He did the smart thing, which was to show up prepared and sell himself well. He then laid out his requirements. If they thought he was worth it they'd pay. Nothing wrong there IMO.

 

[LBS-bass]

I think that's why there's so much disagreement in this thread. There's a lot of people on forums that simply don't exist in that pro world, it's a different mindset, completely, that they can't relate to. Maybe this is an eye-opener. I'm not surprised by the weekend warrior mindset, I've co-existed in that world, as well. But music, to some, is a payable skill, and is treated as such.

I'm in the middle, because I like using my skillset for fun/expression, but also to make money. The more I like the particular music, the less I care about the money. Want me to play classic rock or blues in a crappy bar? I'll do it, I'll kill it, but I gotta get paid, 'cuz that just ain't my idea of an optimal fun musical experience. Those who do that kinda stuff for the love, I respect it, but that ain't me.

Yep, I'm where you are. I get the "pro" world because I did make my living in music for about a decade, so I know the difference between what a seasoned player brings to a stage versus what someone less experienced will bring. A minimum is the playing skill to do the music and the willingness to learn the material at home. There are many other layers of understanding that only are acquired through stage experience.

But my days doing that are long gone. Nowadays I am firmly in the hobby camp, playing as much as I can, with whoever I can play with, mainly for fun and for need, because I can't not do it, it's in my blood. I've been offered pay to rehearse recently and I also turned it down because I didn't like the people and I wasn't sure the band had the potential I wanted to see. So I don't feel like I have a desire to disparage people on either side of this, but I do think it's helpful to have an understanding of where you are, where your band is, and where other people might be in relation to all this. That's the problem I see here with the OPs scenario.

This drummer and this band are mismatched because they are currently existing in very different worlds, and somehow the drummer was convinced to waste his time learning songs and auditioning for a band that was never going to be a fit for him. I don't know why that happened, but it did.

There's no need for either group to be offended at the other, or even surprised, because those worlds exist. It's not a match, move on. Find the drummer that you want that will work for less and rehearse for free. They are out there. You might have to deal with some other issues, but they exist.

The OPs question was very straightforward. He wanted to know if we'd heard of such a thing, and it's pretty clear that the answer is yes, we have. It's a thing that exists. Wanting to be paid for providing the service of musical skill exists.

 

[Koshchei]

Hey all. I have been playing steady in the PHX area since ‘98, so it’s saying something when I say that this is a new one for me. I joined this “ Killers “ tribute band and we have been auditioning drummers for the last month or so. Had a drummer audition last Sunday, dude came prepared and pretty much nailed everything. Had a great conversation with him afterwords and he really liked what we were doing and wanted to be part of it. Sent him on his way and we all agreed that we should continue on with him, BL said he would call him the next day to offer him the position. Got a call from the BL the next day after he talked to this guy and he said the drummer had some “ conditions “. Come to find out, playing drums is all he does for making money and his “ conditions “ are, he wants a minimum of $150 a gig and expects to be payed $75 per practice for gas money. Like stated earlier, I have doing this a loooong time, been in many high/low profile bands and I have never heard of or expected to be payed for practicing! Many of my projects required a travel time of 45-60min and I never once felt like I should be payed to travel for practice, The $150 a gig is another thing that annoyed me, if we do not make $150 per member at a gig, tough ***** dude, we all take the time and effort per gig, and we all deserve an equal share. I expressed my concerns with BL and after a long conversation, he kind of agreed. The BL thinks that drummer is just trying to see what he can get out of us and is going to call him and express our concerns over his “ conditions “, basically calling his bluff. I think that drummer was good, but not that good. Have any of you guys/gals heard or experience this??

If he's a sideman, then he should be paid for rehearsal time and gig time. Whether you can afford him is another matter entirely.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Not a dig on the OP, but the drummer is walking a different walk. His expectations aren't outrageous and if he's doing rehearsal time for free, then there will be a ton of rehearsals. If he's rehearsing, he's not gigging. People with a day job can rehearse for a year without getting paid.

 

[Koshchei]

Not a dig on the OP, but the drummer is walking a different walk. His expectations aren't outrageous and if he's doing rehearsal time for free, then there will be a ton of rehearsals. If he's rehearsing, he's not gigging. People with a day job can rehearse for a year without getting paid.

This is where the OP decides whether he's in a professional working band, which can capitalize on a solid professional drummer and turn what amounts to a rhythm section upgrade into a guaranteed $150/night/musician + rehearsals enterprise, or a hobby, where he's more in it for the fun than the money.

 

[lownote67]

Being paid for rehearsal is unusual in cover bands, but not unheard of (see below). IMHO most people in cover bands should consider it a hobby instead of a profession.

Card carrying union musicians expect to get paid half scale for rehearsals. Never been a union man, but I have worked in the same circles where I was paid according to the union fee structure. I have also taken work in union organizations; meaning it was necessary to join the union to continue working in the organization; I declined. I believe union members can be kicked out of the union if they take work that does not conform to union scale.

Most of my experience has been in either military bands or what I call corporate bands. Corporate bands basically draw on a pool of musicians, so personnel are rotated from gig to gig. The corporate band I worked with most did not rehearse unless we had a show that had custom arrangements. I got paid half scale ($75) for those rehearsals. For normal gigs we just showed up and played (I.E. no rehearsal).

Someone who relies exclusively on music to support his/her family cannot afford to rehearse for free. Another important fact that is likely to be a problem, is they will typically take work with many different groups on a first come first serve basis, and bookings may occur many months in advance.

IMHO, this is not the right drummer for your, regardless of how well he plays and fits in. Honestly I am surprised he took the audition, and he must be sort of desperate.

This