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Was Jaco completely self taught?

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#183
Brad Johnson said:
Did you even bother to read what I wrote?
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Yep.

Brad Johnson said:
Is that your idea of genius?

If so... thanks.
:D
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You're welcome, Genius.

hamster-mouse-lighting-wheel-1.gif
 
#184
J-Bassomatic said:
sorry, a**ists
Museum o fart
Yeah as far as a*t goes I think Van Gogh was a little like Jaco, a brilliant flame then trouble holding it together. They left some beautiful work but I feel for them and their troubled lives.
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Actually van Gogh had a Formal and very classical education as a painter and studied and copied his predecessors, even after he had developed his own style.
 
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#185
Skeptismo said:
I think it's false to make too much of a difference between someone like Jaco who lacked formal scholastic training in theory, and someone who did, when at the end result they both had the knowledge. Wooten talks about music as a language, and if we can accept that observation as essentially true, then those folks who believe that learning music theory in a pedagogical way actually can change the way they think about music are probably right.

If you are interested, take the time to read this article Lera Boroditsky, a professor at UCSD who has mad credentials in cognitive science and psychology HOW DOES OUR LANGUAGE SHAPE THE WAY WE THINK? | Edge.org . If you don't have time or inclination, that's cool...essentially she says that when you learn a language, it affects the way you think in tangible, observable ways. What this means in the context of this particular conversation, is that learning the formal language of music can affect the way you think about music. Whether this might or might not stifle creativity is open for debate.

However, regardless of your own level of formal musical education, think of how dissonant music from other cultural traditions sounds to you at first listening. In fact, I'm betraying my own musical training trying to explain my own point, in relating say, Indian music to Western music in terms of consonance and dissonance. Do you see what I mean? With a formal, pedagogical musical tradition stretching back to Boethius, it isn't until the 20th century that Western music even has a way to express (microtonal) music from outside the culture. I'd say that it looks like knowing that "language of music" could be considered stifling to creativity.

While I think we could all find common ground in that having more education about music (regardless of its source) is essentially a superior condition to having less education, that's not the same as saying that pedagogical training cannot or does not stifle creativity. Those who argue that one must, "learn all the rules, to break free of the rules", are also somewhat missing the mark. I would argue that those who are "learning all the rules..." are at the same time truly and deeply mastering their instrument(s). By gaining powerful and deep skill with their instrument, they are able to explore possibilities that others might not, but does this mean they are more creative than they would be if they never learned the rules in the first place? Think free jazz...players trying to escape boundaries on creativity. Where did the initial boundaries come from?



Jaco seemed like the kind of musician who really appreciated the "melting pot" he came up in. He expressed that he benefited tremendously from being exposed to all sorts of pop, jazz, afro-cuban, classical...etc. It seems to me, that to truly keep from stifling creativity in any way, one must not limit oneself to learning one language of music, but to learn all languages of music. Focusing on Western music and theory will definitely cause one to spend deep time with their instrument, and give them the opportunity to master the same. That kind of discipline will likely result in intense creativity within that context. However that context will necessarily affect the way one thinks, and affect the nature of their creativity.

Thanks to the OP for spawning this discussion!
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Interesting addition to this discussion. And I agree with your point, but it is limitied in the sense that learning that "language" isn't just the result of formal education. Cultural bias is as much also the result of upbringing, the street, etc. If you're lucky a good education can broaden your horizon, but so can meeting new people on the street.

In several posts the concept of creativity is linked to thinking outside the box. Actually in most studies in the field of creativity (Yes that's a thing), one of the most important aspects of creativity is not the thinking outside of the box, but the ability to connect different boxes in an unexpected and new way. I.e.: copying Bird on an electric bass, or using the visual language of primitive art and children in formal painting (by very skilled and classically trained painters).
So the point isn't that you should know your box before you can think outside of it. It's: the more boxes you know, the more you potentially can connect. And it does not really matter if you got to know those boxes in or outside school, but it stands to logic you'll expand your possibilities if you learn both inside and outside school. Even then though, the ability to connect is notoriously very hard to learn in a formal way. That's more of a question of getting rid of things blocking your creativity and a complex combination of nature and nurture.
 
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#188
I'm not sure how knowing the names and language of music can stifle creativity...?

Or how a knowledge of how it works is damaging...?

But here's my experience. I have a degree in Jazz Performance.

In the music I play, I never play the song the same way twice. Our setlist options in OnSong are over 2000 songs, that the BL will pull from. There's a ton of them, that I've never even heard...

Some nights are a creative waterfall, where I can play exactly what I'm hearing in my head, and it provides a feeling like I'm flying!

But, on most nights, the conduit between my brain and my fingers is clogged with other life issues, kids grades, a disagreement with my wife, what I'm going to make for breakfast the next morning, etc. On those nights, a thorough understanding of music and styles serves me VERY well. I can play, and not a single person in the audience will ever suspect that I'm not having a great night.
 
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#189
tfer said:
I'm not sure how knowing the names and language of music can stifle creativity...?

Or how a knowledge of how it works is damaging...?

But here's my experience. I have a degree in Jazz Performance.

In the music I play, I never play the song the same way twice. Our setlist options in OnSong are over 2000 songs, that the BL will pull from. There's a ton of them, that I've never even heard...

Some nights are a creative waterfall, where I can play exactly what I'm hearing in my head, and it provides a feeling like I'm flying!

But, on most nights, the conduit between my brain and my fingers is clogged with other life issues, kids grades, a disagreement with my wife, what I'm going to make for breakfast the next morning, etc. On those nights, a thorough understanding of music and styles serves me VERY well. I can play, and not a single person in the audience will ever suspect that I'm not having a great night.
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:thumbsup::thumbsup:;)
 
#190
tfer said:
I'm not sure how knowing the names and language of music can stifle creativity...?

Or how a knowledge of how it works is damaging...?

But here's my experience. I have a degree in Jazz Performance.

In the music I play, I never play the song the same way twice. Our setlist options in OnSong are over 2000 songs, that the BL will pull from. There's a ton of them, that I've never even heard...

Some nights are a creative waterfall, where I can play exactly what I'm hearing in my head, and it provides a feeling like I'm flying!

But, on most nights, the conduit between my brain and my fingers is clogged with other life issues, kids grades, a disagreement with my wife, what I'm going to make for breakfast the next morning, etc. On those nights, a thorough understanding of music and styles serves me VERY well. I can play, and not a single person in the audience will ever suspect that I'm not having a great night.
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I have eliminated at least one of your issues:

download (8).jpg


You're welcome!:roflmao:
 
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#197
Spectre Gunner said:
I noticed an error and it was keeping me up all night. If you change it to: Q = N4* x 1/37 - (I+T+D) * YxZ = 3 it will solve the equation. There... I can sleep now.
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It was a trick question... Teen Town was actually written in the 1940's by McKinley Morganfield*. It was the B side to "Mannish Boy". Anyway... that lead to "LL" which in turn spurred interest in the original "TT" which was never credited to the original by MM. Fun fact: David Dortort, creator of the (widower + three sons) formula used on Bonanza and later co-opted by Fred MacMurray, wrote the infamous lost fourth verse of "LL" that varied wildly from the I-IV-V-IV of the prior verses. So multiplying by 1/37 actually yields not only a completely different third verse with its Sun Ra influence, the fourth verse lyrics convert to Aramaic. I confirmed this with no less an authority than Giorgio A. Tsoukalos. Yes, THAT guy.

Genius is a big cross to bear. Pardon the pun.


*Muddy Waters. Mud Puddle to his friends.
 
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