Was Jaco completely self taught?

[B-line]

I believe...
That just like athletics, some are naturally (genetically?) blessed. Some, without coaching, are wonders and can do it all..
Run, Throw, Dribble, etc.
Likewise I believe some are musically inclined, with degrees of talent ranging from "Good" to basically Genius level.
Those with the intrinsic, inner Musical talent can benefit from a mentor or teacher or formal education, but can and will produce marvelous results with or without.
Comparatively, those who may have a "lesser" set of natural skills (Mozart vs. Saliari e.g) or are not geniuses for want of a better word-may benefit (or not) from intensive instruction.

I used to like Tennis and wasn't too bad, but I could be coached all day & still Federer would win in straight sets.

Jaco no doubt was born with that gift, so I would say was Victor Wooten, Anthony Jackson, and the long list of other stellar players. Each had their own level of training, as well as everyone being self-taught in the respect that they seek out their own inspiration and influences.

I have (2) cousins, brothers- (1) a guitarist, (1) a pianist. Both are straight-up geniuses, musically and otherwise.
Both have achieved success and have worked with World-Class performers including Rufus Reid, John Mayall, Sugarcane Harris and more. Interestingly, both are semi-retired from playing, one sculpts, the other happily lives in France enjoying computers and wine!
Both had natural genetic born talents; their Dad was a Howard Hughes-type inventor, made millions, then ditched their Mom, a scenario which I think along with the trust-fund money, boosted their talents.

They say we only use, what, a very small % of our brains. Maybe those like Jaco, they are just dialed in to a larger percentage, combined of course with the hard work and 'shedding he put in.
Me- I'm just a "grunt" prolly the lesser brain-percentage, but as my Girl says:
"I AM FUNKY!"

 

[B-line]

I'm not too interested in the "who is capable of creating more artistic music, the schooled player or the self taught player?" debate.

Setting aside for a moment the artistic merits of the finished product, and looking only at the financial bottom line, I can say without hesitation that hiring educated musicians will generally save time and money in the recording studio. And it's not just knowing how to read notation. It's also about knowing theory, calling things by their proper names, understanding what the other musicians are doing on their instruments, being knowledgeable about topics like composition, arranging, ear training, etc. The educated musician will generally be quicker at communicating and understanding musical ideas in the pressure cooker of the studio.

You bet your bottom $$ on THAT!
When the Production Company is spending $$$ for the session, if it's not done right post-haste, a call-back will probably never happen for whoever is tanking it or taking to long.
Either a session player has the background and education, or ears that make Dumbo the Elephant's look small!

 

[J-Bassomatic]

Hi J -bassomatic ...thanx for your answer



artists???



f+A+o and f is art. (well sometimes) where would you put Van Gogh?
as to music where would you put Mozart? (even Mozart just had piano lessons and no studies)

both of them died poor (certainly not because they had no skills )

greetings

sometimes Wise sometimes not so Wise(b)ass

sorry, a**ists
Museum o fart
Yeah as far as a*t goes I think Van Gogh was a little like Jaco, a brilliant flame then trouble holding it together. They left some beautiful work but I feel for them and their troubled lives.

 

[Saratogacv60]

Ill never understand the concept that formal music education is in someways harmful to music creativity. Jaco didnt espouse this belief himself and taught music in a formal environment at the university level. What I take from the inumerable stories of great musicians who learn by ear, is that there is something extremely valuable to learning by ear, not that it is the best way to learn, but the effort and skill necessary to learn by ear is valuable in and of itself. It is also possible that there is no one way to learn music and aome people just take better learning music in a formal manner.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Not so sure I can agree with this - I'd say the opposite is true. How could one learn to think outside the box until he or she knows what the box is, where it is, or how big it is? Or if the box even exists altogether?

Easy. Approach things from another direction.

You don't have to be aware of a box to think outside of it. It wouldn't be the first time a fresh set of eyes came up with a new solution to a problem.

I get it, it's the old you have to know the rules to break them. Except it's not necessarily a given.

It's funny knowing I'm an exception to so many of these rules that have been described here. Of course if there are enough exceptions it's probably not a very good rule.

 

[Scruffy_Johnson]

Easy. Approach things from another direction.

You don't have to be aware of a box to think outside of it. It wouldn't be the first time a fresh set of eyes came up with a new solution to a problem.

How can you think "Outside the Box" if you don't KNOW "the Box" exists or its "limitations" (i.e., being in or out of it). Be careful, Mr. Genius, you just may (re)invent the wheel!

I get it, it's the old you have to know the rules to break them. Except it's not necessarily a given.

It's funny knowing I'm an exception to so many of these rules that have been described here. Of course if there are enough exceptions it's probably not a very good rule.

See above. You might be trapped inside your own Hamster Wheel.

 

[J-Bassomatic]

Ill never understand the concept that formal music education is in someways harmful to music creativity.

Maybe a bad experience somewhere has soured the cream?

 

[Spectre Gunner]

Einstein was formally trained. He learned the box inside and out and totally understood everything about the box and it's limitations. Then with a Big Bang, he exploded the box far beyond the boundaries of the universe.

Jaco stated he was "formally self taught". I like to think he mostly taught himself formally. Regardless of his training sources he obviously took personal responsibility to learn and absorb whatever musical theory and technique existed at the time and performed it only with the limited gear that existed in their time. When it comes to mastering the bass, he was the Einstein of his time. When you judge someones legacy, you should always compare them to the piers of their particular era.

Somewhere in this world the next "Jaco" is out there somewhere practicing and is taking advantage of the enormous plethora of training resources that exists in this new millennium and taking advantage of every opportunity to perform publicly with someone new each night. Hopefully, that new bass player will get recognized and promoted so they have the opportunity to rise to the top like Jaco did.

 

[bobyoung53]

Looking as I type. Miles, Mingus, LaFaro, Ron Carter, Coltrane, Bill Evans, Charlie Haden, Anthony Jackson, James Jamerson, Ray Brown, Gerry Mulligan, Chet Baker, Linda Oh, Pat Metheny, Burt Bacharach, Duke Ellington, Herbie Hancock, Paul Chambers, Dave Brubeck, Christian McBride, Reginald Veal, McCoy Tyner, Tony Williams, Art Blakey, Jobim, Tania Maria, Lalo Schifrin, Neal Hefti, ... all these people are musically literate. I may be missing something, but that something falls short of proving your point.

I'll restate my previous question a bit differently... what's been created (exactly) that makes you believe musical literacy is an impediment to creativity? I'm asking for something a bit more specific than what you provided in your previous post.

Chet Baker was a rudimentary reader at best, could not sight read, he played all that wonderful stuff by ear.

 

[B-line]

Chet Baker was a rudimentary reader at best, could not sight read, he played all that wonderful stuff by ear.

Did you see "Born to Be Blue" by any chance??
Pretty damn good, and Ethan Hawke is amazing...That's actually him singing with awesome backing.

 

[bobyoung53]

Did you see "Born to Be Blue" by any chance??
Pretty damn good, and Ethan Hawke is amazing...That's actually him singing with awesome backing.

No I didn't but thanks for reminding me, I love Chet Baker, have read books about him, seen the older films but forgot about that movie. Do you have Chet Baker Live in Tokyo? Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

 

[B-line]

No I didn't but thanks for reminding me, I love Chet Baker, have read books about him, seen the older films but forgot about that movie. Do you have Chet Baker Live in Tokyo? Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

As far as I'm concerned it IS our reg sched Program!

If you like Chet, I think you'll dig this movie, I was really pleasantly surprised, and Yes, "Live in Tokyo' is beautiful work.

 

[B-line]

"We interrupt your regular programming...."

Not Chet, but pretty sweet IMO

 

[bobyoung53]

As far as I'm concerned it IS our reg sched Program!

If you like Chet, I think you'll dig this movie, I was really pleasantly surprised, and Yes, "Live in Tokyo' is beautiful work.

I just ordered a DVD of it, thanks for the reminder.

 

[bobyoung53]

As far as I'm concerned it IS our reg sched Program!

If you like Chet, I think you'll dig this movie, I was really pleasantly surprised, and Yes, "Live in Tokyo' is beautiful work.

 

[jaymelewis]

Easy. Approach things from another direction.

You don't have to be aware of a box to think outside of it. It wouldn't be the first time a fresh set of eyes came up with a new solution to a problem.

I get it, it's the old you have to know the rules to break them. Except it's not necessarily a given.

It's funny knowing I'm an exception to so many of these rules that have been described here. Of course if there are enough exceptions it's probably not a very good rule.

Obviously, because music is more of an art than a science (there is science involved, but not so much that it takes precedence over the art) there are many ways to achieve it at a high level. I'm not arguing that at all.

I was self-taught for almost 15 years before seeking out a formal education in music. But at age 21 with a Bachelor's Degree in Music, I achieved an intimate knowledge of music that I was never going to get on my own (obviously an exaggerated statement, but I'll stand by it).

So I'm actually also one of the exceptions that you speak of, like yourself; but I also have seen the other "conventional" side of this scenario as well. And to say that being on one side gets in the way of the other is, in my opinion (having known both), nonsense.

To say that one is perfectly content being on this side or that is fine - express your voice and your art in any way you wish! We're all delighted for it. But I can tell you with honesty, having decades of experience with both sides of this argument, that to assume that both history and conventional methods will only hinder your creativity is definitely shooting yourself in the proverbial foot (Please know my use of the word "you" is not to call YOU out in particular, but used as a generalized 2nd person narrative).

I welcome your thoughts and opinions!

 

[B-line]

Eff, YEAH!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Obviously, because music is more of an art than a science (there is science involved, but not so much that it takes precedence over the art) there are many ways to achieve it at a high level. I'm not arguing that at all.

I was self-taught for almost 15 years before seeking out a formal education in music. But at age 21 with a Bachelor's Degree in Music, I achieved an intimate knowledge of music that I was never going to get on my own (obviously an exaggerated statement, but I'll stand by it).

So I'm actually also one of the exceptions that you speak of, like yourself; but I also have seen the other "conventional" side of this scenario as well. And to say that being on one side gets in the way of the other is, in my opinion (having known both), nonsense.

To say that one is perfectly content being on this side or that is fine - express your voice and your art in any way you wish! We're all delighted for it. But I can tell you with honesty, having decades of experience with both sides of this argument, that to assume that both history and conventional methods will only hinder your creativity is definitely shooting yourself in the proverbial foot (Please know my use of the word "you" is not to call YOU out in particular, but used as a generalized 2nd person narrative).

I welcome your thoughts and opinions!

I think the idea that education will hamper creativity is just one more thing that some people say without the benefit of looking at it from all angles. Hopefully that's a nice PC way to put it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

How can you think "Outside the Box" if you don't KNOW "the Box" exists or its "limitations" (i.e., being in or out of it). Be careful, Mr. Genius, you just may (re)invent the wheel!



See above. You might be trapped inside your own Hamster Wheel.

Did you even bother to read what I wrote? My guess is that even a hamster would, given the opportunity.


This isn't a matter of genius, it's about fundamental problem solving... or just trying something for the heck of it. Do you think you have to know everything that everyone else has tried before you can attack a problem? Did the first person who attacked the problem create the "box"?


Trying things that others haven't doesn't require knowing what's been done before. I can think of problems I've addressed where I didn't research whatever methods everyone else before me had tried. Necessity is the mother of invention... but check out the box first?

Do you not see that? Is that your idea of genius?

If so... thanks.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Maybe a bad experience somewhere has soured the cream?

Sometimes it could be as simple as parroting something someone you respect said.

Baggage... the motivating factor behind way too much "knowledge".


My problem is that when someone tells me something that doesn't quite click, I ask questions. That is often seen as an offense, as if I'm trying to pick apart what they said. No, I'm just trying to make sense of it for me.

And if it clicks for the person saying it, explaining it shouldn't be but so hard.

Then again...

We were having a discussion about "Louie, Louie" and it's metamorphosis into "Teen Town" and things got out of hand.