Was Jaco completely self taught?

[lfmn16]

Not true... Every art form has that idea, (ever heard of the Primitive or Outsider Movement?) and it's valid as far as stylistic programming goes. Writers made an effort to abandon style conventions many times, or else we'd still be using Thomas Hardy's style. Vonnegut walked away from all that school technique, invented new conventions still in use. For instance, limiting the vocabulary. (look where we are now with that...)
Being boring is the only crime in fine art, and if you use every color you still might make boring art. Throw it out and start again fresh.
Sometimes it is necessary to get away from programmed methods and just wander in the wilderness. People who come up with melody after melody know this. It can't be taught, but mind/technique chatter can prevent many experiences. Schools of pedagogy Do dictate styles. Great visual art schools Teach how to go beyond those. Classical music schools didn't used too, as the audiences leaving Beethoven and Stravinsky concerts demonstrate. Now they have Cage to electronic so called music, and making a living is what is taught. You can make a living teaching a pedagogical method and conventions of style. R&R is taught in summer camps now which is a damn good idea. PS I believe Chet Baker had some issues with reading and didn't know chordal harmony with the, um, verbal part of his brain. It wasn't a problem, but he wasn't an innovator, he was an American phenom idiot savant.

I've never heard someone what actually had a formal musical education say that it held them back. Ironically, it's the ones without a formal musical education, that don't know what they don't know, that think somehow knowledge holds you back.

An education allows you the choice of following the path or striking out on your own.

Creative people find creative ways to use the tools at their disposal. Uncreative people find excuses for why they can't be creative.

 

[David Jayne]

I have (actual) friends with formal music educations. They travel the globe making a good living working for Smokey Robinson, Bill Evans, John Mayer, Blood Sweat and Tears, Cindy Lauper, Average White Band, Jose Feliciano..... Those of us who don't (mine is limited) work in wedding bands, clubs, bars etc to supplement our day jobs. Which is not to say you CAN'T have a career in music without it, but it sure helps.

 

[BassBrass]

I've never heard someone what actually had a formal musical education say that it held them back. Ironically, it's the ones without a formal musical education, that don't know what they don't know, that think somehow knowledge holds you back.

Of course. I've never had but a momentary experience or two with those people that don't know what they don't know, I've heard they muck everything up. I was just responding that there is a reason why ignorance is valued in the arts and that too many colors Do stifle and artist and too large a vocabulary Does stifle a writer. In practice, that is. You can have it and manage to put it aside for the sake of being liked or understood. We aren't practicing floccinaucinihilipilification here.

An education allows you the choice of following the path or striking out on your own.
Creative people find creative ways to use the tools at their disposal. Uncreative people find excuses for why they can't be creative.
100% agree.

 

[B-line]

Aaron Mills is one of the funkiest bassists around. There he is w/ Cameo, in Doc Maartens and all, but this interview shows what's behind him. Donald Byrd, Jazz, etc. This is a complete musician, trained and brings the funk.



His BL, Larry Blackmon, attended Julliard.

Now back to Jaco.....

 

[buldog5151bass]

I am of the mindset that a formal music education can actually get in the way of truly artistic composition.

Why do these quotes only seem to come from musicians who did not receive formal education?

Knowledge is never bad.

 

[B-line]

One can succeed as an untrained, un-schooled musician. This can range from say Wes Montgomery who had the inner voice to play guitar like no other style, to say...Green Day for instance (I apologize if they all have degrees or something!)
point being that they can become millionaires based on record sales alone. MANY examples of that kind, all too many IMO.

But any suggestion that formal training can do anything but improve both the odds of success OR one's creative abilities is kinda silly. IMO YMMV. etc.

The first instructor I saw when I began to really apply theory to my playing, rather than just my ears and feel, told me straight out:
He was an old-school NYC jazzer, a pretty good name in his time;

"You gotta read".

Plain & simple. He meant that if you wanted to do sessions, wanted to be considered for many different types of gigs, whether shows, the bass chair, etc.

You gotta read.

Yes; exceptions, but I took the great effort required (for me anyway) to become a decent reader.
It has helped, and not hindered my playing creativity one iota.

 

[smtp4me]

I am of the mindset that a formal music education can actually get in the way of truly artistic composition.

Respectfully disagree. It can, but there is no proof that it will. Your premise is subjective, just as what is labelled as "art" is subjective. You gave a few picture examples of musicians with no formal training, but you cannot claim with certainty that training would have prevented their success. Conversely, you cannot claim that musicians with formal training are any less artistic.

 

[Wisebass]

Hi David

man you opend up a can of worms (great thread!!!)

with all that, I don't know where to begin

was Jaco completely self taught? No! Nobody is!!! (just my thoughts)

great teachers understand that everyone is self taught

a good teacher teaches you how to learn not only what to learn

I am pretty sure Jaco would not approve of the way this thread is going...

he would not read it, he would play bass with great musicians (and never stop to learn!!!)


too much posts about art!!! Art has nothing to do with skills, art is about creativity, personality and talent (that cannot be taught)
skills can be taught, they can help an artist to create stuff, but skills don't make you an artist!

I don't want to play the bad guy but who are we to talk about art? (are we Mozarts, or Jacos? ) I am not

I am just a bassplayer (some say a good one ) need to post these funny little guys.....

may the bass be with you (and yes my Pa and my grandpa played music but not rock)

Wise(b)ass

 

[J-Bassomatic]

too much posts about art!!! Art has nothing to do with skills, art is about creativity, personality and talent (that cannot be taught)
skills can be taught, they can help an artist to create stuff, but skills don't make you an artist!

Which is it? "Art has nothing to do with skills" or "skills can be taught, they can help an artist to create stuff"
I don't see much difference between art and music TBH. You learn to use your preferred instrument, you can teach someone to play bass but their skill level and direction is up to them. I agree you have to 'have it in you'. I have seen artists that have encyclopedic knowledge of their craft but create rather mediocre work. But if the mention of ART is disturbing then I shall refrain from using it.

BTW whenever I see 'Museum of Art' I mentally move the space between the 'f' and the 'A' to be between the 'o' and the 'f'. I just can't help it.

 

[Sixgunn]

I am of the mindset that a formal music education can actually get in the way of truly artistic composition.

...says most people without formal music education

 

[Spectre Gunner]

I am of the mindset that a formal music education can actually get in the way of truly artistic composition.

How can know this is true if you never had any formal music education???

There is an interview with Jack Bruce where he actually said this sort of thing and he did have formal training. But he was referring to the music schools in England being super strict about not straying away from what is written. But once you are out of the school you a choice to play whatever and however you want.

Jaco did have a lot of training but it may not have been "formal". Nevertheless he knew music so well he was hired as a music teacher at the Univ of Miami. In addition to various forms and sources of his training, he gained a lot of experience early on. As the son of a professional musician, he grew up with music all around him.

 

[chuck3]

I have friends with formal music educations. They travel the globe making a good living working for Smoky Robinson, Bill Evans, John Mayer, Blood Sweat and Tears, Cindy Lauper. Those of us who don't (mine is limited) work in wedding bands, clubs, bars etc to supplement our day jobs.

I agree with your basic point, but Bill Evans? Didn't he die in 1980?

 

[Deleted member 165050]

I am of the mindset that a formal music education can actually get in the way of truly artistic composition.

Interesting viewpoint. If you learn composition rules you are bound to be influenced by them...

 

[gjohnson441496]

Self Taught? Maybe
Genius? Possibly
In 1999 I taught myself HTML and other languages. Genius?? My boss thought so, and he allowed me to skip work to get a FORMAL EDUCATION in Visual Basic and other computer languages. I'm no Einstein, but what's difficult for some is a piece of cake to others, and that goes for learning to play an instrument.

Inspiration and influence has a lot to do with how one is motivated to accomplish anything.

While searching for this...

self-taught
ˈˌself ˈtôt/
adjective

1. having acquired knowledge or skill on one's own initiative rather than through formal instruction or training.
   
   

I found this interesting article. Check it out...

What Does it Mean to be Self-taught? - Treehouse Blog

 

[Sixgunn]

I don't see much difference between art and music TBH

Name one difference. Music IS art.

 

[J-Bassomatic]

Name one difference. Music IS art.

Other than one is visual and the other is aural there is none.

 

[B-line]

I agree with your basic point, but Bill Evans? Didn't he die in 1980?

I thought that too, but there's Saxman Bill Evans as well.

I'd like to add, to DJaynes post, that I get it, but we must WARN those throngs heading to Music School be it Juilliard, Berklee, North Texas State, or Musician's Institute:

The realities of the Music Biz are such that it is skill 1st, but you gotta hang, and get the break. There are lots of GOOD players (you should check out the Vegas scene e.g.) in WANT of a gig that they most surely qualify for.

Show Biz. Not to NOT imply that the more you know, the better your chances are.

 

[Sixgunn]

Other than one is visual and the other is aural there is none.

Exactly. Both are fully art

 

[ezra1]

I love TalkBass....
Ask a simple question andddd

 

[Sixgunn]

Those of us who don't (mine is limited) work in wedding bands, clubs, bars etc to supplement our day jobs.