Thanks for that! That part of my post wasn't to miss Byrd's degrees --I didn't know whether he had them or not-- but to mention what had to have been the coolness of that course that semester. I'd have loved to be a fly on the wall.
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Was Jaco completely self taught?
- Thread starter David A. Davis
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Thanks for that! That part of my post wasn't to miss Byrd's degrees --I didn't know whether he had them or not-- but to mention what had to have been the coolness of that course that semester. I'd have loved to be a fly on the wall.
Interesting. Could you kindly provide one or two specific examples of individuals whose artistic expression was hindered by their having a formal music education? Thank you.
Best thing I've read on TB - ever.
I see that Mr. Linnin et al have disappeared. Probably scribbling out a tab.
The really great teachers understand that everyone is self taught. Teachers are only there as guides or to help the student find the resources required to learn something for themself.
The idea that Keith Richards and Willy Dixon are musical illiterates and are somehow opposite of formally trained musicians is laughable. Willy was trained on the job as a close harmony singer en Keith worked his ass off attaining musical theory. Willy was very knowledgable in music theory and not some kind of savant.
There are lots of ways of receiving an education. In almost every artform people balance out three ways: school, on the job by the masters and your peers, and figuring it out yourself. How you balance those depends on your personal inclination and opportunity. There's nothing magical or more creative in being thought on the job as there is nothing inherently superior in the school diploma itself. For a lot of great musicians practice learning was a tough and demanding proces that left them with a lot of knowledge. Knowledge that some of them now teach in schools. And I would have loved to have the chance to attend those classes. And i bet the young Willy Dixon would have as well. (I don't know about Jaco, he strikes me as a bit to jumpy to fit in a classroom)
I think it is impossible to find a great musician that either developed his talent solely on his own or solely in a schoolbench. And positioning those two as opposites is silly.
There are lots of ways of receiving an education. In almost every artform people balance out three ways: school, on the job by the masters and your peers, and figuring it out yourself. How you balance those depends on your personal inclination and opportunity. There's nothing magical or more creative in being thought on the job as there is nothing inherently superior in the school diploma itself. For a lot of great musicians practice learning was a tough and demanding proces that left them with a lot of knowledge. Knowledge that some of them now teach in schools. And I would have loved to have the chance to attend those classes. And i bet the young Willy Dixon would have as well. (I don't know about Jaco, he strikes me as a bit to jumpy to fit in a classroom)
I think it is impossible to find a great musician that either developed his talent solely on his own or solely in a schoolbench. And positioning those two as opposites is silly.
I'm a hard rock/metal bassist and good at my craft. Lots of room for improvement but there will be until I die. I am baffled when people turn up their nose at the likes of Keith Richards.
Music is an art form and when a musician creates and moves an audience he has succeeded as an artist. If a guy can go boodly boodly faster and with more attendance to theory but fails to move his audience is he still better than the guy with great groove, tone, and ability to make his instrument move his audience but with less knowledge of theory application?
Music is an art form and when a musician creates and moves an audience he has succeeded as an artist. If a guy can go boodly boodly faster and with more attendance to theory but fails to move his audience is he still better than the guy with great groove, tone, and ability to make his instrument move his audience but with less knowledge of theory application?
The arts may be the only field where some people seem to think ignorance is an asset. It's like saying too many colors stifle an artist or too large a vocabulary stifle an author.
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David Santos calls himself a "street player" in this video. Check out his informal education odyssey via Tampa bars, Berklee, and NYC wedding gigs.
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@Joe Nerve Part 2 is for u
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@Joe Nerve Part 2 is for u
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I am pretty sure Jaco would not approve of the way this thread is going...
I saw a Jaco interview where he said his father showed him he needed one finger per fret after he learned to play with just 2 fingers. A major paradigm shift.
As far as a music education....I have one. I played in NY and the NE as a gigging saxophonist. I had to do two things:
Read like a mofo and improvise.
I didn't learn to read under pressure at school. I learned to read by playing on cruise ships for 4 years.
I learned to improvise on the gig...music theory slightly applies. My 2 cents. And oh---if you play jazz gigs in NY---do not bring music.
As far as a music education....I have one. I played in NY and the NE as a gigging saxophonist. I had to do two things:
Read like a mofo and improvise.
I didn't learn to read under pressure at school. I learned to read by playing on cruise ships for 4 years.
I learned to improvise on the gig...music theory slightly applies. My 2 cents. And oh---if you play jazz gigs in NY---do not bring music.
I think you hit the nail on the head. There seems to be a lot of " black and white " in this thread. I have played with degreed musicians who could not play the gig without sheet music in front of them, even after playing the same songs for years. I've also played with degreed musicians who never needed sheet music to play the gig. I have had formal lessons in reading music, ( no degree ), but discovered early on that I could easily learn my parts by ear, and went that direction. I think a good balance of some sort of formal training, and a good " feel " for the genre of music, which , imho, you can only get from a lot of just listening to it, makes an all around good musician. I don't think a musician who doesn't have a music degree is " ignorant ", any more than I think a degreed musician is " ignorant " because he can't play the gig without sheet music.
Well, arguably the greatest composer of all time (Mozart) was taught by his father, an experienced music teacher, although he was doing so much at an extremely young age he wouldn't have had a ton of training yet, so there is probably a lot to be said for rote studies getting in the way of creativity.
"Im formerly self taught" was one of the greatest Jaco lines of all time. Absolute pun perfection.
Not true... Every art form has that idea, (ever heard of the Primitive or Outsider Movement?) and it's valid as far as stylistic programming goes. Writers made an effort to abandon style conventions many times, or else we'd still be using Thomas Hardy's style. Vonnegut walked away from all that school technique, invented new conventions still in use. For instance, limiting the vocabulary in prose and poetry and now internet shorthand which creeps into public speech...The arts may be the only field where some people seem to think ignorance is an asset. It's like saying too many colors stifle an artist or too large a vocabulary stifle an author.
Being boring is the only crime in fine art, and if you use every color you still might make boring art. Throw it out and start again fresh.
Sometimes it is necessary to get away from programmed methods and just wander in the wilderness. People who come up with melody after melody know this. Schools of pedagogy Do dictate styles. Great visual art schools teach how to go beyond those. Classical music schools didn't used too, as the audiences leaving Beethoven and Stravinsky concerts in shock demonstrate. Now they have Cage to electronic so called music, and making a living is what is taught. You can make a living teaching a pedagogical method and conventions of style. R&R is taught in summer camps now which is a damn good idea. PS I believe Chet Baker had some issues with reading and didn't know chordal harmony with the, um, verbal part of his brain. It wasn't a problem, but he wasn't an innovator, he was an American phenom idiot savant.
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Here's an experience of mine that relates to my personal best impression of Jaco's genius and work ethic, and schooling in one form or another:
Some here probably know of Scott Henderson, a brilliant guitarist.
Before he achieved his present recognition, he was a local player in Los Angeles, working his way up, starting with Jean-Luc Ponty and then on.
But before this, he was a grunt like many of us are/were. SO, we went to see him (he was a buddy of a friend of mine) playing at a local bar. Cover Band, Him, Drums, Bass, Female Singer, all except Scott-Totally average bar band players, nothing there.
They were finishing up a version of "Cocaine" then took a break. We went over to see Scott- The rest of the "Band" (he was a hired-gun sideman of course) was drinking, yammering, having fun at the bar. Cool.
Scott was sitting at a table, by himself, with an excercise book open, and he was on his own, doing practice transcriptions, harmonics, modes, etc. By himself, for himself. Up until it was time to play their BS for the next set, which I might add-
Scott played great stuff on their standard repertoire of Classic Rock, Blues and such.
A real Pro, capital P.
I have no idea of Scott's musical education or background, pretty sure he had some formal schooling, makes no diff.
The best passage I remember reading about Jaco was how on the Tour Bus for the CC Riders, the others were playing cards and making jokes, Jaco was plugged into earphones woodshedding and running modes,
When I was beginning, I practiced thru the night til my fingers almost bled! (Drama!) Not so much now, but I still do a work-out daily.
I was fortunate to have studies also with the Great and amazing Dave Parlato ( from Barbara Streisand to Zappa!)
and HE had studies with a gentlemen whose name he told me but I forget- who was one of the Principle Bassists with the LA Phil, and that ain't chickenfeed!
Learning is a process, school or the bandstand, or at home. I shudder to think of where Jaco might have gone had he lived longer in better mental health.
Beat to death by a Bouncer...One of Music's tragic notes in History. Takes a Bass Player to get that.
I remember hearing "Donna Lee" and thinking to myself...
"RUH-ROH!!!"
Some here probably know of Scott Henderson, a brilliant guitarist.
Before he achieved his present recognition, he was a local player in Los Angeles, working his way up, starting with Jean-Luc Ponty and then on.
But before this, he was a grunt like many of us are/were. SO, we went to see him (he was a buddy of a friend of mine) playing at a local bar. Cover Band, Him, Drums, Bass, Female Singer, all except Scott-Totally average bar band players, nothing there.
They were finishing up a version of "Cocaine" then took a break. We went over to see Scott- The rest of the "Band" (he was a hired-gun sideman of course) was drinking, yammering, having fun at the bar. Cool.
Scott was sitting at a table, by himself, with an excercise book open, and he was on his own, doing practice transcriptions, harmonics, modes, etc. By himself, for himself. Up until it was time to play their BS for the next set, which I might add-
Scott played great stuff on their standard repertoire of Classic Rock, Blues and such.
A real Pro, capital P.
I have no idea of Scott's musical education or background, pretty sure he had some formal schooling, makes no diff.
The best passage I remember reading about Jaco was how on the Tour Bus for the CC Riders, the others were playing cards and making jokes, Jaco was plugged into earphones woodshedding and running modes,
When I was beginning, I practiced thru the night til my fingers almost bled! (Drama!) Not so much now, but I still do a work-out daily.
I was fortunate to have studies also with the Great and amazing Dave Parlato ( from Barbara Streisand to Zappa!)
and HE had studies with a gentlemen whose name he told me but I forget- who was one of the Principle Bassists with the LA Phil, and that ain't chickenfeed!
Learning is a process, school or the bandstand, or at home. I shudder to think of where Jaco might have gone had he lived longer in better mental health.
Beat to death by a Bouncer...One of Music's tragic notes in History. Takes a Bass Player to get that.
I remember hearing "Donna Lee" and thinking to myself...
"RUH-ROH!!!"
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