Was Jaco completely self taught?

[Brad Johnson]

Wait- missed this one. We don't agree that I don't always need a hook when my intent is to digest the music and the music alone? What does the fact that hooks exist in all kinds of music have to do with the fact that I don't always need them?

Wait, what??
:\

I think I have a more pertinent question:

What does whether or not YOU need a hook have to do with my initial point about hooks?


I didn't reference anything you in particular need in regard to hooks. So I don't know the answer to your question

 

[Brad Johnson]

No, it doesn't. I was referring to people who don't care for a particular musician's playing within a genre they like.



Agreed. I'm saying the concept of "fake" is defined arbitrarily from jump.

I didn't think not appearing to be authentic to people familiar with a genre was all that arbitrary. Like some of the truly cornball Reggae bassplaying I've heard... including my own. It's not that I dislike Reggae, I haven't immersed myself in it to the degree many others have.

I figured mentioning myself as a specific example might make it less arbitrary.

 

[R Upsomegrub]

I think it was in the video "Jaco Pastorious - Modern Electric Bass"; Jerry Jemmot is interviewing Jaco and mentions something about him being "basically self-taught" to which Jaco replies "formally self-taught".

 

[Rayjay]

I couldn't disagree more. It's a nice semantics exercise at best. "Self-taught" does not mean that you grabbed knowledge from the ether for most people. It means that you were not formally taught by someone else. You made the effort to attain knowledge on your own. Yourself.

It can be a real challenge for some people to have a conversation on the internet and not completely disagree with the other guy. I wouldn't say I completely disagree with you at all; I think you have some valid points. I'm pretty sure I have a few valid points as well. Completely disagreeing with me is a silly extreme. I just don't see how you could pick up The Real Book, without any knowledge of what's written down, and figure it out, without someone explaining it. How did you figure out the keys? How did you build the chords? How did you know those little notes were the melody, and that the form repeats, and that it's broken down 4 beats to a bar in AABA form? What clef was it written in? Oh, FACE, Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge...you didn't figure that out on your own, it's complicated. You were taught. Maybe you weren't necessarily seeking the knowledge, maybe in some instances you were not getting it, maybe not realizing you weren't getting it even, and someone pulled you aside and taught you. Never? I doubt that. Anyways, aloha!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Interesting. I don't think this applies to musicians exclusively. It is the same with artists, mathematicians etc. Some people seem to have a predilection for what they are drawn to/good at. Obviously Jaco 'saw' music, his mind made connections and the formal training backed up what he had already figured out. Like Newton, who needed a math to explain what he was doing and it didn't exist, so he invented it. Same with Einstein. I have seen DOGMA interfere with art, to maybe give an idea as to what Linnen stated and I have seen this. In the visual arts light advances and dark retreats but if you make that a hard fast unbreakable rule you may never see the reverse can also be true. Therefore you limit yourself and really, I have seen this. Anyway, my 2 cents. I am in awe of people like Jaco or the artist Paul Klee who were educated and even teachers but were not bound by it. And did fantastic things.
EDIT: Free your mind Neo

So... Jaco had formal training? I missed that.

 

[gjohnson441496]

I think it was in the video "Jaco Pastorious - Modern Electric Bass"; Jerry Jemmot is interviewing Jaco and mentions something about him being "basically self-taught" to which Jaco replies "formally self-taught".

That's an excellent video and may be where I remembered his quote about learning the fretboard during a summer when he was a kid.

 

[dbbltime]

I'm fortunate to be able sit at my monitor and observe so many interesting, and well articulated points of view. BRAVO to all, and thank you.

 

[RBrownBass]

I didn't reference anything you in particular need in regard to hooks.

No, I did that. And you replied by posting that a lot of music has hooks. That part of your post was accurate, but not particularly relevant. If there was something in that post that we don't totally agree on, all that's left is whether we agree on my needs for hooks.

<shrugs> You are being evasive. It's all good, tho

 

[Brad Johnson]

It can be a real challenge for some people to have a conversation on the internet and not completely disagree with the other guy. I wouldn't say I completely disagree with you at all; I think you have some valid points. I'm pretty sure I have a few valid points as well. Completely disagreeing with me is a silly extreme. I just don't see how you could pick up The Real Book, without any knowledge of what's written down, and figure it out, without someone explaining it. How did you figure out the keys? How did you build the chords? How did you know those little notes were the melody, and that the form repeats, and that it's broken down 4 beats to a bar in AABA form? What clef was it written in? Oh, FACE, Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge...you didn't figure that out on your own, it's complicated. You were taught. Maybe you weren't necessarily seeking the knowledge, maybe in some instances you were not getting it, maybe not realizing you weren't getting it even, and someone pulled you aside and taught you. Never? I doubt that. Anyways, aloha!

Sweet.

I don't completely disagree with everything that you have ever said on the internet. I disagree with the SPECIFIC post I quoted and everything that was stated to rationalize it.

I think there's a difference. Or it's silly. I'm cool with either.

How could someone pick up a Real Book and make sense of it? Great question. That is not where you START would be my answer.

Just like just about any expertise, there are building blocks. I'm not sure why you can't see someone working on those building blocks without formal instruction. I won't call it silly, just baffling.

I realized later on in my journey that, without instruction, I was recognizing intervals in songs. And by gaining experience with that I taught myself how to transpose because after a while I didn't always need to be holding my bass to learn a song. I learned how to play in 7/4, 5/4 etc. not by instruction but by doing. It wasn't explained to me, I listened and then played along.

I am not anti-education, far from it. Get there whatever way floats your boat. I knew what I wanted to learn and I knew none of it would happen without serious shed time. Why some think you have to be lead to the shed vs. pointing yourself there is a mystery to me. Why do you think that? Why do you think someone couldn't learn the bass clef without an instructor? Did Jaco's dad tech him or did Jaco have to learn his fingerboard on his own?


How did I figure out those little notes were the melody? Seriously? Doe, a deer... a fe-male deer was a nice little lesson but I don't consider Julie Andrews a formal instructor. She sang it, it stuck. Reading was not required.

Sayonara!

 

[Brad Johnson]

No, I did that. And you replied by posting that a lot of music has hooks. That part of your post was accurate, but not particularly relevant. If there was something in that post that we don't totally agree on, all that's left is whether we agree on my needs for hooks.

<shrugs> You are being evasive. It's all good, tho

Of course it's me... that's the beauty of the internet.

My point was that hooks weren't just in lesser music, to hook the listener. There are even hooks in *gasp* Jazz. I thought that was obvious from my answer but you went somewhere entirely different. Cool.

 

[Joebone]

You're looking in wrong direction. Here's something to get you started.

Is the white guy trying to lick boogers out of his nose?

 

[Brad Johnson]

As someone who fondly remembers wearing out albums moving the needle back over passages, I'm enjoying the idea that teaching yourself is so baffling for some. All it takes is desire, dedication... and an instrument helps.

Or did the albums "teach" me?

What I don't get is the semantics of "taught". If you take it upon yourself to gather knowledge, is that being "taught"? Or do you have to do it without looking at, hearing, reading, smelling, etc. anything about music?

 

[J-Bassomatic]

Of course it's me... that's the beauty of the internet.

My point was that hooks weren't just in lesser music, to hook the listener. There are even hooks in *gasp* Jazz. I thought that was obvious from my answer but you went somewhere entirely different. Cool.

Speaking strictly of Jaco, his mind had already made certain connections. He did not know the formality of those connections but once he saw it, it confirmed what he already knew. And hard work, which he was clearly not afraid of.

 

[Basshappi]

Jaco also had perfect pitch.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Speaking strictly of Jaco, his mind had already made certain connections. He did not know the formality of those connections but once he saw it, it confirmed what he already knew. And hard work, which he was clearly not afraid of.

Exactly. I've never been afraid of theory... it explains what I already knew and more.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Jaco was teaching at the University of Miami in the early 1970s. I doubt U of M would allow anyone to teach who knew nothing about music theory. Although, he appears to have been teaching without a degree. Something fairly unusual in my experience.

Teaching without a degree is not unusual in many music schools. I know Tom Kennedy taught at university where I work despite not having a degree. When it comes to teaching music, especially teaching an instrument, colleges often put proficiency above a degree. Ralphe Armstrong is another great bassist who has taught at the college level without a degree.

 

[Basshappi]

As someone who fondly remembers wearing out albums moving the needle back over passages, I'm enjoying the idea that teaching yourself is so baffling for some. All it takes is desire, dedication... and an instrument helps.

Or did the albums "teach" me?

What I don't get is the semantics of "taught". If you take it upon yourself to gather knowledge, is that being "taught"? Or do you have to do it without looking at, hearing, reading, smelling, etc. anything about music?

This has been my experience as well. I have also had formal training from time to time over the years.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Jaco also had perfect pitch.

I know folks with perfect pitch and while it seems like a cool thing, I've found that good relative pitch comes in very handy too. It's what I use when I play.

 

[Basshappi]

Completely agree, I was just throwing another "Jaco factoid" out there.

 

[RBrownBass]

I think it was in the video "Jaco Pastorious - Modern Electric Bass"; Jerry Jemmot is interviewing Jaco and mentions something about him being "basically self-taught" to which Jaco replies "formally self-taught".

This is where Jemmott maybe should have pressed Jaco a bit (respectfully) for more clarity... Of course, he doesn't owe anything to us future Internet Jaco debaters, but it sure would have been a nice gesture as an interviewer to have him get into the specifics of his learning. I certainly want to know exactly what he did to make himself the player he became, even if the same formula doesn't work quite as well for me.

Uh, does the video go into more detail there? I should probably ask before assuming Jemmott left it at that.