Was Jaco completely self taught?

[jerry]

I think one of the things that cursed Jaco is also was part of his genius.
One of the things that comes with bi-polar is long streaks of focus without sleep. I think in those long stretches on the bus and when he lived above the laundry he would focus on reading and theory. That and being naturally gifted has cursed more than one of our greats in the past.

 

[RBrownBass]

I'll go away myself. TB... services... entertainers and ignores genius.

 

[B-line]

I think the Jaco "secret" was simple...

He practiced his arse off!

(P.S.) You can do that in or outta school!

 

[ToneMonkey]

Jaco was teaching at the University of Miami in the early 1970s. I doubt U of M would allow anyone to teach who knew nothing about music theory. Although, he appears to have been teaching without a degree. Something fairly unusual in my experience.

 

[faceless_master]

With all due respect, can we stay on topic here. We can start another thread to discuss it, but for this one let's stay on the genius that was Jaco.

Yeah, because we've never had that kind of thread on TB before

 

[Killed_by_Death]

When it gets to the point where Gatemouth Brown and Mick Jagger are examples of superior musical creativity,

I've haven't seen M.J. referenced, but I did see Keith Richards in a photo on page 1.

 

[faceless_master]

I've haven't seen M.J. referenced, but I did see Keith Richards in a photo on page 1.

He was just taking the piss

 

[Brad Johnson]

I'll go away myself. TB... services... entertainers and ignores genius.

No offense... how is that attitude any better?

Hint: TB is no particular mindset. It's a large group of people on a forum from all walks of life. And they all don't agree or disagree on anything.

It's like thinking Ebay is one seller who sells all sorts of stuff.

 

[David A. Davis]

Jaco was teaching at the University of Miami in the early 1970s. I doubt U of M would allow anyone to teach who knew nothing about music theory. Although, he appears to have been teaching without a degree. Something fairly unusual in my experience.

I was thinking the same thing. He obviously had a fantastic ear. I see several guys out there that have little or no formal education who are complete monsters.

 

[leegreenman]

He also played drums prior to picking up the bass, so it's not like he picked up the instrument with no musical background.

 

[Acoop]

Jaco to Jagger. ... ??? ... Jaco had a photographic memory, when it came to music, where he could hear something once when pick it up and run with it. ... There's a story of him auditioning for someone, it's in the book, he caught the bands arrangements the night before then walked in the next night and killed the set without charts. ... But his formal training was done playing bars 7-nights a week with real good players.

 

[David A. Davis]

He also played drums prior to picking up the bass, so it's not like he picked up the instrument with no musical background.

Yes, and his Dad was a musician.

 

[RBrownBass]

No offense... how is that attitude any better?

Hint: TB is no particular mindset. It's a large group of people on a forum from all walks of life. And they all don't agree or disagree on anything.

It's like thinking Ebay is one seller who sells all sorts of stuff.

I said I'd leave, but I'll reply to this.

It does paint TB as monolithic, and that's not true. I like a lot of different kinds of music, but I do not consider them equal in value, aesthetically or educationally. There isn't any way to say this without coming off as a snob to someone who sees equal value in all forms of music so I pretty much quit trying.

But IMO it's better because at least (I hope) it pushes TB to reflect the same values that apply to most instruments used in Western music. The disrespect of formal training doesn't infect the cello community or the oboe community or the viola community or the french horn community or... you get the idea. I spend a lot of time in the DB side of this site and it pains me to see difference in the level of appreciation for learning between there and here. I love electric bass, but I sure wish more people would take it seriously. I haven't taken it as seriously as I have the DB, and I'm still behind because of it, limited to some degree to the sort of music that other guy somehow thought was special.

Sorry if this seems disjointed.

 

[Smooth_bass88]

I am of the mindset that a formal music education can actually get in the way truly artistic composition.

you are indeed entitled to your opinion, but how in the heck can knowledge get in the way of 'truly artistic composition' ?

 

[Brad Johnson]

I said I'd leave, but I'll reply to this.

It does paint TB as monolithic, and that's not true. I like a lot of different kinds of music, but I do not consider them equal in value, aesthetically or educationally. There isn't any way to say this without coming off as a snob to someone who sees equal value in all forms of music so I pretty much quit trying.

But IMO it's better because at least (I hope) it pushes TB to reflect the same values that apply to most instruments used in Western music. The disrespect of formal training doesn't infect the cello community or the oboe community or the viola community or the french horn community or... you get the idea. I spend a lot of time in the DB side of this site and it pains me to see difference in the level of appreciation for learning between there and here. I love electric bass, but I sure wish more people would take it seriously. I haven't taken it as seriously as I have the DB, and I'm still behind because of it, limited to some degree to the sort of music that other guy somehow thought was special.

Sorry if this seems disjointed.

Thanks for the expansion. Yes, TB is far from monolithic. So are bass players. The "disrespect" that you see is not exactly rampant. Most people I'd guess who aren't into formal education probably don't rant about it.

The funny thing is that the POV that some music is "lesser" could also be seen as disrespect. I don't necessarily look at people who think that more complicated or "educated" music is somehow better as snobs... though some could be. IMO it's often a matter of missing the point.

People listen to and perform music for all sorts of reasons. One interesting phenomena that I've seen often is the inability of some fairly accomplished musicians to be able to play "lesser" music. They might go as far as to get the notes in the general vicinity but fail at playing it authentically. That shouldn't be hard if the music is simpler... but lots of things can seem simple if you never get inside of them.

I've actually found that coming up with a simply catchy hook can be more elusive than blowing modes for spare change.


More complex/faster notes does not always equal better. While there is a level of skill involved, skill does not necessarily equal true musical talent or guarantee musical enjoyment. The same slew of 32nd notes could fascinate one listener while boring another to tears. It doesn't have to be a reflection of the listener's intelligence.

Interesting discussion.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Sure Jaco was something. He opened the door for a lot of stuff.

But I still feel like artistic expression isn't the goal of music in the end. It is always about money, fame, women. Event during the time of Bach, Mozart etc. Always locked by what is musically acceptable in their time period

 

[Rayjay]

I don't like to call people like Jaco "self-taught" Maybe its because of the stigma with the word self-taught. I think of self-taught musicians as those who actively disregard anything already considered standard practice by most working players - music theory, music reading, technique, "speaking the language" (ie talking to other musicians in their own language), musical vocabulary (ie authentically playing the style of music you're attempting), etc - they just sort of "go their own way." A very small percentage of these people actually making pleasing sounds and become regarded in their field - guys like the Minutemen (and a lot of other early punk bands), for example - no desire to become in demand session cats that can hang with any musicians, they just play their own thing. It either works (it did for them), or it flops, badly, as in most cases.

Jaco certainly wasn't that type of guy. He actively sought out all those things. He wanted to become the best bassist he could be - he knew theory inside and out, including piano, he played styles of music with extreme authenticity and soul and believability, he could sit in and hang with just about any player, he looked up to older musicians and asked for their advice, and took their advice to heart, he knew how to pick up the bass and figure out fingerings and get a good tone - so he didn't necessarily need to be told the things that beginners need to be shown in lessons.

 

[RBrownBass]

Thanks for the expansion. Yes, TB is far from monolithic. So are bass players. The "disrespect" that you see is not exactly rampant. Most people I'd guess who aren't into formal education probably don't rant about it.

I'm pretty sure it isn't a majority. I probably notice it more than I ought to. I didn't have to quote that guy, for example. No one else had done so, and without my input, it probably would have gotten the attention it deserved, which is none.

The funny thing is that the POV that some music is "lesser" could also be seen as disrespect.

I get that, but I enjoy it on occasion anyway. I probably should have categorized by what I do with it. For example, I'd go to a Jimmy Buffett show and drink. And dance (to the best of my ability). Same with a Stones show. OTOH, I caught Linda Oh with Metheny a few weeks ago and didn't feel the need to do anything but listen. When I'm at home, the various forms of jazz don't need anything but a great stereo and a chair. I am listening to the music, and all those things that accompany the experience of other forms of music are distractions.

People listen to and perform music for all sorts of reasons. One interesting phenomena that I've seen often is the inability of some fairly accomplished musicians to be able to play "lesser" music. They might go as far as to get the notes in the general vicinity but fail at playing it authentically. That shouldn't be hard if the music is simpler... but lots of things can seem simple if you never get inside of them.

I come down on the side of authenticity being decided in a subjective manner. Yeah, I know all opinions about music have elements of subjectivity in them that can't be excised (yet), but the level of outside (nonmusician) judgement about who has "it" (whatever that means) and who doesn't is staggering when we get to stuff like blues and R&B. It's almost as tho the (arguable) lack of technicality draws all sorts of critics and praisers who never read a note or plucked a string for anyone who called them because they can play.

I've actually found that coming up with a simply catchy hook can be more elusive than blowing modes for spare change.

I agree totally with this. Hooks are made for folks to catch. If they aren't easy to catch, they won't be caught. But I don't always need a hook when my intent is to digest the music and the music alone.

 

[jerry]

Jaco to Jagger. ... ??? ... Jaco had a photographic memory, when it came to music, where he could hear something once when pick it up and run with it. ... There's a story of him auditioning for someone, it's in the book, he caught the bands arrangements the night before then walked in the next night and killed the set without charts. ... But his formal training was done playing bars 7-nights a week with real good players.

If I remember correctly it was Blood Sweat & Tears.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I'm pretty sure it isn't a majority. I probably notice it more than I ought to. I didn't have to quote that guy, for example. No one else had done so, and without my input, it probably would have gotten the attention it deserved, which is none.

True.

I get that, but I enjoy it on occasion anyway. I probably should have categorized by what I do with it. For example, I'd go to a Jimmy Buffett show and drink. And dance (to the best of my ability). Same with a Stones show. OTOH, I caught Linda Oh with Metheny a few weeks ago and didn't feel the need to do anything but listen. When I'm at home, the various forms of jazz don't need anything but a great stereo and a chair. I am listening to the music, and all those things that accompany the experience of other forms of music are distractions.

Or simply life. If I went to a Buffett show and drank, I wouldn't look at either as a distraction. It would be part of that moment. But that's me.

I come down on the side of authenticity being decided in a subjective manner. Yeah, I know all opinions about music have elements of subjectivity in them that can't be excised (yet), but the level of outside (nonmusician) judgement about who has "it" (whatever that means) and who doesn't is staggering when we get to stuff like blues and R&B. It's almost as tho the (arguable) lack of technicality draws all sorts of critics and praisers who never read a note or plucked a string for anyone who called them because they can play.

"Outside" judgement? Interesting.


I don't think that you have to be able to play to determine what's authentic to you. IME people know what they like and they know when people aren't bringing it. It's easy for them to tell when someone is faking Bluegrass, R&B, Reggae (some of the worst offenders), etc. So I'd probably trust an outsider who's a real fan of a genre vs. someone who's faking the funk. And I've heard my share of faked funk.
:/

I agree totally with this. Hooks are made for folks to catch. If they aren't easy to catch, they won't be caught. But I don't always need a hook when my intent is to digest the music and the music alone.

There are hooks in all sorts of music. So we probably don't totally agree on that point.