Was Jaco completely self taught?

[InhumanResource]

To answer OP's question, no...not in the traditional sense. But if you follow some things he put out (instructional videos, interviews, etc) you'll find that he DID bother to learn to read staff and improvise over some very complicated harmony which is something all the jazz greats did, whether they learned it in university or in the woodshed. They DID work out their harmony, figure out chord extensions and how to improv on them, all that stuff.

To digress a little, I'm always tickled by the stubbornly proud self-taught crowd who paint formal education in a bad light. There's always more to learn, and going to school is a great way to do it. There's nothing about learning that stifles creativity, that's absolute nonsense and a crutch in the best of interpretations. I won't get into the worst.

 

[B-line]

...Aaaaaand:
Here on Bass Guitar/Talkbass I must remind myself that we have Bass Guitarists whose tastes, skills, and preferences range from Lemmy to Jaco to Fieldy to Flea, to Anthony Jackson. (Who have I forgot?)

 

[Brad Johnson]

I don't like to call people like Jaco "self-taught" Maybe its because of the stigma with the word self-taught. I think of self-taught musicians as those who actively disregard anything already considered standard practice by most working players - music theory, music reading, technique, "speaking the language" (ie talking to other musicians in their own language), musical vocabulary (ie authentically playing the style of music you're attempting), etc - they just sort of "go their own way." A very small percentage of these people actually making pleasing sounds and become regarded in their field - guys like the Minutemen (and a lot of other early punk bands), for example - no desire to become in demand session cats that can hang with any musicians, they just play their own thing. It either works (it did for them), or it flops, badly, as in most cases.

Jaco certainly wasn't that type of guy. He actively sought out all those things. He wanted to become the best bassist he could be - he knew theory inside and out, including piano, he played styles of music with extreme authenticity and soul and believability, he could sit in and hang with just about any player, he looked up to older musicians and asked for their advice, and took their advice to heart, he knew how to pick up the bass and figure out fingerings and get a good tone - so he didn't necessarily need to be told the things that beginners need to be shown in lessons.

"Self-taught" means you taught yourself. It has nothing to do with "what" you taught yourself. So if it's demeaning, I'd think that's in the eye of the beholder.

If you learned how to read on your own, how to navigate a Real Book, ear training and recognition of intervals, how to work within an ensemble... the stigma is?


BTW I'm self-taught on bass and proud of it.

 

[RBrownBass]

I don't think that you have to be able to play to determine what's authentic to you.

I don't think so, either.

IME people know what they like

Without question, and I wouldn't begrudge them the right to their preferences.

and they know when people aren't bringing it.

If the "it" you refer to is "what they like", you're absolutely correct. I understand the purchasing power of the individual listener, and I understand the need for working musicians to connect with whoever's out there that might listen. But I see marketing in composition as a different topic for another thread.

It's easy for them to tell when someone is faking Bluegrass, R&B, Reggae (some of the worst offenders), etc.

I'd argue that it's easy to tell when someone is playing something they don't care for. I've had exactly the sense you're describing, that "This dude doesn't belong here/usually play this genre". And yes, especially in reggae. But I dismiss it almost immediately because subjectivity. And I won't ever suggest he's faking it. He is who he tells me he is and all I can do is decide whether his sound is what I want to hear. If I don't like his reggae, he's a reggae artist whose music I don't much care for.

So I'd probably trust an outsider who's a real fan of a genre

If that's what they are, I can understand your position.

I've heard my share of faked funk.
:/

Have you? I mean, what you describe as faked may well be exactly what someone else feels is as funk-laden as it gets. Or it may not. This is where we end up when everything is decided by subjective opinions.

 

[B-line]

Get through either or both of these in or out of a brick and mortar school, you'll have your work cut out!

BTW- I attended a concert many years back, (I'm pretty sure it was Classical), and they intro'd, who was in attendance, sitting (1) seat down from me..Slonimsky hisself. Jeesh. Don't even know what I would have said if I knew!

 

[RBrownBass]

...Aaaaaand:
Here on Bass Guitar/Talkbass I must remind myself that we have Bass Guitarists whose tastes, skills, and preferences range from Lemmy to Jaco to Fieldy to Flea, to Anthony Jackson. (Who have I forgot?)

The greatest of them all... Gene Simmons!

 

[faceless_master]

you are indeed entitled to your opinion, but how in the heck can knowledge get in the way of 'truly artistic composition' ?

It's a lie hacks tell themselves when they don't want to put the work into learning theory.

 

[RBrownBass]

But I don't always need a hook when my intent is to digest the music and the music alone.

There are hooks in all sorts of music. So we probably don't totally agree on that point.

Wait- missed this one. We don't agree that I don't always need a hook when my intent is to digest the music and the music alone? What does the fact that hooks exist in all kinds of music have to do with the fact that I don't always need them?

 

[Smooth_bass88]

It's a lie hacks tell themselves when they don't want to put the work into learning theory.

oooh...BAM!

 

[B-line]

The greatest of them all... Gene Simmons!

How COULD I forget??!!

 

[RBrownBass]

View attachment 1180051

How COULD I forget??!!

IKR? I'm surprised there isn't a two-week TB ban for not properly lauding the greatness that is Gene Simmons

 

[Rayjay]

"Self-taught" means you taught yourself. It has nothing to do with "what" you taught yourself. So if it's demeaning, I'd think that's in the eye of the beholder.

If you learned how to read on your own, how to navigate a Real Book, ear training and recognition of intervals, how to work within an ensemble... the stigma is?


BTW I'm self-taught on bass and proud of it.

My meaningless opinion: if you know how to read, someone taught you. Either a person, or a book. If you can navigate a chord chart, either someone showed you or it was explained through reading about it. No one just picks up a sheet of music or a chart and knows what to do automatically. They were shown the ropes and respected their advice enough to take it. No ensemble would tolerate someone who just walks in, picks up an instrument, and starts blowing; they would stop, and show you what's up, assuming you're still invited to play. You don't learn as you go so much as you learn, and then you go; at least, not from scratch.

In that way, I think that very, very few musicians actually are completely self-taught. Eventually, I'm sure someone said to you, "hey, kid, I hear you're not quite getting this thing that's going on, let me show you how to approach it." I'm not assuming anything and maybe I'm completely wrong, but I'd bet that happened at least once or twice, especially knowing the jazz community I grew up in - its a dying art form and if no one shows it to the kids coming up, it'll be gone.

Now, I knew some punk rock kids that really, truly were self-taught. They didn't know how to tune up, what any knobs did on their amps, what any note was called, completely forget the concept of charting a tune; maybe possibly tab, but these kids weren't interested in playing anything at all unless it was something they came up with on their own. That's truly self-taught IMHO

I know a lot of other guys, who consider themselves self-taught, but they've had lessons here and there, took advice from other cats from time to time, read advice columns from respected players, watch instructional videos, stuff like that. "Never taken formal lessons" is more like what I'd call them. They are great players, but they have a lot of shortcomings from never studying with a teacher that I see but they don't see in themselves - stuff like timing issues, knowing theory, music reading issues, other various issues that they just don't get, but they could if they knew how to figure it out.

I'd put Jaco in the category of "never taken formal lessons" but "knew how to figure it out." But not "self-taught," since people taught him how to speak the language, and that's really what it's all about to be a player as diverse as he was. What I'm saying, is that people did indeed teach him.

FYI I never addressed "self-taught" as necessarily demeaning, its just that I have come across way more people who are self-professed self-taught that couldn't swing their way off a teeter totter than could.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I don't think so, either.



Without question, and I wouldn't begrudge them the right to their preferences.



If the "it" you refer to is "what they like", you're absolutely correct. I understand the purchasing power of the individual listener, and I understand the need for working musicians to connect with whoever's out there that might listen. But I see marketing in composition as a different topic for another thread.

Purchasing power?

You can listen to music for free on the radio.

I'd argue that it's easy to tell when someone is playing something they don't care for. I've had exactly the sense you're describing, that "This dude doesn't belong here/usually play this genre". And yes, especially in reggae. But I dismiss it almost immediately because subjectivity. And I won't ever suggest he's faking it. He is who he tells me he is and all I can do is decide whether his sound is what I want to hear. If I don't like his reggae, he's a reggae artist whose music I don't much care for.

IME it doesn't have to be a matter of not caring for a genre. It could easily be that they have a 10,000' view of it which may not help in understanding the intricacies needed for authenticity. I've seen folks who act as though they're killing it

And as a working bassist I'd argue that while it may be easy to tell when some musicians don't like what they're playing, you'd be hard pressed to do that with me on a gig. Because I play like I'm playing my favorite song. "Walking On Sunshine"? YEAH!!


Me liking it has nothing to do with it. That's amateur hour if you want to succeed at performing live for most musicians.

If that's what they are, I can understand your position.



Have you? I mean, what you describe as faked may well be exactly what someone else feels is as funk-laden as it gets. Or it may not. This is where we end up when everything is decided by subjective opinions.

"Fake the funk" is a figure of speech. It could apply to any genre.

 

[J-Bassomatic]

Interesting. I don't think this applies to musicians exclusively. It is the same with artists, mathematicians etc. Some people seem to have a predilection for what they are drawn to/good at. Obviously Jaco 'saw' music, his mind made connections and the formal training backed up what he had already figured out. Like Newton, who needed a math to explain what he was doing and it didn't exist, so he invented it. Same with Einstein. I have seen DOGMA interfere with art, to maybe give an idea as to what Linnen stated and I have seen this. In the visual arts light advances and dark retreats but if you make that a hard fast unbreakable rule you may never see the reverse can also be true. Therefore you limit yourself and really, I have seen this. Anyway, my 2 cents. I am in awe of people like Jaco or the artist Paul Klee who were educated and even teachers but were not bound by it. And did fantastic things.
EDIT: Free your mind Neo

 

[RBrownBass]

IME it doesn't have to be a matter of not caring for a genre.

No, it doesn't. I was referring to people who don't care for a particular musician's playing within a genre they like.

"Fake the funk" is a figure of speech. It could apply to any genre.

Agreed. I'm saying the concept of "fake" is defined arbitrarily from jump.

 

[BAG]

This guy was self taught, can play pretty well and still can't read music. I'm not going to say that being musically literate is an impediment to musical artistry, but being musically illiterate is also not an impediment.

 

[gjohnson441496]

Yes, and his Dad was a musician.

Yes, and he was no slouch. If I remember correctly from my reading about Jaco, his dad told him, in order to play in his band, he had to learn every note on the fretboard before the summer ended (paraphrased). The point is, Jaco was motivated.

 

[Scruffy_Johnson]

I am of the mindset that a formal music education can actually get in the way truly artistic composition.

It's limiting. Look at what has been created and who created it, and you'll see for yourself.

This is going to be fun!

Linnin, just think of the music Bach, Mozart, Beethoven could've composed had they known nothin'. I'm so sad now, after your intelligent revelation.

NOT!

As expressed earlier, this is the lazy-musicians way to justify NOT learning - anything. Extremely lame.

And raising examples of Keef and Gatemouth as "See they did it!" completely forgets the "lottery winner" effect. Those blokes got lucky - real lucky, and you probably won't.

You get that from guitarists a lot that reference Jimi Hendrix, but I'd argue Jimi Hendrix knew music theory. There are times where he's transitioning chords to other forms that shows understanding.

Reading/writing music is just unrelated to creativity in my mind. It's an additional skill. One would still need the music theory knowledge to play nice with others, however it's learned.

Don't forget, Hendrix invented the "Hendrix Chord"! Fondly described in disgusting Music Theory Terms, as a Dominant Seventh with an Augmented Ninth -- X7#9. Just too long, and makes my head hurt - and my fingers.

Jaco was teaching at the University of Miami in the early 1970s. I doubt U of M would allow anyone to teach who knew nothing about music theory. Although, he appears to have been teaching without a degree. Something fairly unusual in my experience.

The DEMAND on music schools to recognize the Electric Bass as a legitimate instrument was made by the influx of "Paying Music Students" (that, of course, played the Electric Bass) causing Miami and Berklee to scramble for instructors. Then is took off and now tons of music schools have programs for fledgling EB players - just bring the tuition money, and you are in, but you'll NEVER get a gig that earns a livable wage. To this day, MANY College Jazz Professors do NOT have music degrees. Of course, one must have a HUGE record of MASSIVE musical experiences. Just follow the money.

Yes, and his Dad was a musician.

Of course that doesn't count!

 

[jerry]

Dennis Chambers one of the best and most recorded jazz drummers doesn't read, but he has a hell of a memory.

 

[Brad Johnson]

My meaningless opinion: if you know how to read, someone taught you. Either a person, or a book. If you can navigate a chord chart, either someone showed you or it was explained through reading about it. No one just picks up a sheet of music or a chart and knows what to do automatically. They were shown the ropes and respected their advice enough to take it. No ensemble would tolerate someone who just walks in, picks up an instrument, and starts blowing; they would stop, and show you what's up, assuming you're still invited to play. You don't learn as you go so much as you learn, and then you go; at least, not from scratch.

In that way, I think that very, very few musicians actually are completely self-taught. Eventually, I'm sure someone said to you, "hey, kid, I hear you're not quite getting this thing that's going on, let me show you how to approach it." I'm not assuming anything and maybe I'm completely wrong, but I'd bet that happened at least once or twice, especially knowing the jazz community I grew up in - its a dying art form and if no one shows it to the kids coming up, it'll be gone.

Now, I knew some punk rock kids that really, truly were self-taught. They didn't know how to tune up, what any knobs did on their amps, what any note was called, completely forget the concept of charting a tune; maybe possibly tab, but these kids weren't interested in playing anything at all unless it was something they came up with on their own. That's truly self-taught IMHO

I know a lot of other guys, who consider themselves self-taught, but they've had lessons here and there, took advice from other cats from time to time, read advice columns from respected players, watch instructional videos, stuff like that. "Never taken formal lessons" is more like what I'd call them. They are great players, but they have a lot of shortcomings from never studying with a teacher that I see but they don't see in themselves - stuff like timing issues, knowing theory, music reading issues, other various issues that they just don't get, but they could if they knew how to figure it out.

I'd put Jaco in the category of "never taken formal lessons" but "knew how to figure it out." But not "self-taught," since people taught him how to speak the language, and that's really what it's all about to be a player as diverse as he was. What I'm saying, is that people did indeed teach him.

FYI I never addressed "self-taught" as necessarily demeaning, its just that I have come across way more people who are self-professed self-taught that couldn't swing their way off a teeter totter than could.

I couldn't disagree more. It's a nice semantics exercise at best. "Self-taught" does not mean that you grabbed knowledge from the ether for most people. It means that you were not formally taught by someone else. You made the effort to attain knowledge on your own. Yourself.