Watts Threshold

[Rip Van Dan]

Everyone has different gigging tone and volume goals given their own situation with the music/bands they play in.

I was one of the first to build Greenboy's fEARful 15/6 cabs. At that time I also was designing and building my own cabs as well. I was playing in a very loud rock cover band and was running usually 800 to 1200 watts amps/heads.

Back then I wanted efficient speakers/cabs but also thought I needed a ton of clean power. I took a hiatus from music for a bit and sold all my bass gear. Coming back to music this past year, I realized that I no longer needed to be loud, but wanted the ability if need be.

I bought a couple of new combos (used separately or chained together). Each one is rated at 100 watts into a 112 cab. Each combo only weighs 22 lbs. as I need more lightweight gear. While I've always known we seldom (if ever), are throwing all the watts we might have available into our cabs and the volume output is more a matter of speaker efficiency than watts.

I still see a lot of threads where people already have their own idea as to how many watts they feel they need to gig with their band, but seldom ask (or know) how efficient their cabs are.

My two combos together can put out 200 watts total into two efficient 112 speakers/cabs (100 watts per cab) and it easily holds its own against two guitarists (one with a Fender Twin), loud drummer, and keyboards, and my rig isn't anywhere near full volume output. I know I'm not even using the full 100 watts per amp (combo). I seldom play with these guys and don't really like loud stage volume, but my little rig holds it's own, quite easily in fact, when needed.

So watt is everyone's idea of how many watts they need? What's your bottom, lowest wattage threshold you'd gig with? And why?

Just a thought for discussion.

I'll say right up front that I prefer 800-watt amps. I've been a fan of making sure I had more rig for the gig than I would need since 1971.

I had a very bad experience in late 1971 while I was touring with a nightclub group. Both guitar and bass had upgraded their amps to very powerful amps (120-watts) with 412 cabs and just buried my poor Fender Bassman tube amp the first night they used them. After a couple of days of that, I bought a Standel piggy-back amp that used a powered, 215 bass reflex cabinet, and it easily buried them. So I ended up running it at #3 on the dial indoors. I swore I would never again have too little rig for the gig. That is why I went with the 800-watt Eden amp into the DNS-410 cab with its 1400-watts power handling when I worked my way back up to "pro gear" after a 20-year hiatus to raise a family.

I actually have three different set-ups I gig with now. I started my current set-ups in 2015 with the purchase of my DNS-410 cab (handles 1400-watts rms, weighs 79-lbs.). I'd already had been gigging with my Eden WT500/800 for 5-years by then. I figured I could play absolutely anywhere with it and didn't need to haul around a 410+115 stack anymore. Well that set up was more than enough right up until I had to play a small venue in Monroe, WA in 2016. I rolled it in, the owner shook his head NO, and made me play through is Peavey 112 combo that I just couldn't bet a good sound out of. So I bought my small venue rig you can see below.

• For small venues I'm using a 225-watt rms Eden TN226 amp into a 4Ω Eden EX-112 (300-watts handling power, weighs 30-lbs, uses Neo speaker). Amp weighs 4.7-lb and is dead quite because it doesn't use a fan. I carry the amp in the shoulder bag pictured, throw my green gig bag over the other shoulder, grab my bass in one hand and my cab in the other and carry every thing in or out in one trip. Handle on the cab is in the center of the back edge, which makes it easy to carry with one hand.

• For all the rest of my indoor venues, both medium and large, I'm using my 8Ω DNA-800 amp (400-watts rms into 8Ω and 800-watts into either 4Ω or 2Ω) into my 8Ω DNS-210 cab (700-watts power handling, weighs 52-lbs.). That combination only puts 400-watts into my 210 cab but it is such a loud cab that I now use it for all my indoor venues. However if it's a large venue with a long room, I may very well bridge my Eden WT500/800 amp at 800-watts bridged into 8Ω into it.

I bought my DNS-210 in 2019 when I was accepted into the DNA Endorsers group. I had been using two of the my 4Ω EX112 cabs for the medium sized venues but liked the sound of my 410 better. The DNS-210 has all of the sonic characteristics of my DNS-410 except that it went down to 34Hz as opposed to the 37Hz of the 410 and has 700-watts power handling compared to the 410's 1400- rms watts and weighs just 52-lbs instead of 79-lbs. It's also lighter than carrying two EX-112 cab for a total of 60-lbs. I got a discount on it as a DNA Endorser. That was definitely a win for me.

I didn't actually find out until later just how versatile that cab is. It can handle large venues too. I originally used it with my 800-watt Eden amp but the cab is so loud I found that after I bought my DNA-800 amp in 2021, just using 400-watts into my 210 could easily cover almost every indoor venue small to large.

• For "normal" outdoor venues I'll run my DNA-800 amp into my 8Ω DNS-410 cab. If the place has no buildings, fences, etc. nearby, then I will run my Eden WT500-800 bridged at 800-watt rms into my 410 so all 800-watts is available if I need it because of the lack of reflective surfaces. I'll also run my big Eden amp at wide-open Music Festivals. If I turn the master on my Eden amp up to 10:30, the sound crew at the Music Festivals invariably tells me to turn down. Good news is that at least I don't have to haul around a 165-lb or more 810 cab for Music Festivals.

If I had to "get by" will less than 800-watts of power, I'd want to make sure I could get 500-watts, and I'd get it with two 210 cabs. 250 to 350-watts with a 210 is enough in my experience for all small venues and most medium-sized venues. If you need more, than that, adding a second 210 will allow you to get all 500-watts out of the amp if needed, and that will make a de facto 500-watt 410 rig. Not many places I can imagine where that wouldn't be enough. Nonetheless, I am more comfortable with 800-watt rms amps.

 

[fdeck]

About 100 W into a 1x8 with reasonable sensitivity for its size.

 

[Kindness]

When I was gigging regularly, I'd bring my B-15N (25-30 watts) for most of my 3-4 piece rock gigs and I'd bring an Ampeg V-4B (100 watts) into a 15/6 when the stage volume needed to be higher. I've gigged larger amps (2k watt PA amps, Aguilar DB751, my SVT, etc.) into larger arrays of cabs (Ampeg 810, Bergantino NV610, multiple Aguilar 2x12s, etc.) but I've never actually needed that volume.

 

[Passinwind]

Is that average or peak?

While I want a rig capable of 124dB, that is not the average SPL I play at. AFAIK live bass has something like a 12-15dB crest factor. So even if I am maxing out the rig, meaning my transient are hitting 124dB, the average SPL will be more like 112-115dB.

That's still pretty loud; which is why I pretty much always used custom ER20 ear plugs when I performed.

Maybe closer to peak, it's yet another "just depends" deal as I despise using earplugs when playing and would always take a hard pass on any situation that requires that. I can and have gotten by OK with a 110 and a 100 watt amp perfectly happily in ~100 seat venues now that I'm retired and not doing dance club or festival shows any more. But the 112 / 500 watt pairing is much more fun to play through, and it's still a very easy carry. In any case, I'm not into grind or other obvious distortion mechanisms and for me headroom is king.

 

[basscooker]

Just recently I posted re: an observation I made here at home about a similar circumstance.

I built a 4x8 column I typically power with any (depends on my "feeling that day" mood) of my wonderful amps. These included (until that day): GB Shuttle 3.0, GB Shuttle 6.0, Mesa-Boogie D-800 [OK i admit i use the ohm switch as an ad-hoc attenuator), or GK MB200.

Before I sold it off, also an Ibanez P300H [geez I already forgot the model designation i think but Promethean, either way good head. AWESOME sleeper unit that will be really inexpensive if y'all find it used] SO, I had some power behind my living room set-up, and certainly some headroom, yeah?

I definitely had to consider little details like time of day and what crap I had laying around to avoid rattling in the house.

On a "why not" evening I played through a Marshall 3505 head into the cab. 15-20 watt amp, for those that don't know it. It's "30" solid state watts into 4 ohm, DIY cab is 8 ohm.

Wut?

I had roughly the same volume I usually get. Disclaimer being twofold: a) compressed and no way I was getting any more volume; b) it was definitely overdriven and a bit "wrong" tonally for some of the material.

The concept, however, was not lost on me. Dynamics were gone and I was for sure "coated" in wool; BUT, this "toy" amp head put out the same general loudness I apparently dial back to from MUCH more powerful amplifiers.

I learned a lesson I'll never forget that night. I reaaaaly don't know how much power I actually use.

Eye (and mind) opening session indubitably.

I now shall have less trepidation to accept backlined or "house" rigs, provided with reasonable speaker surface area to work with.

In general I admit I now hold less doubt when I read of folks gigging (foh included) with like Rumble 100's and such. I really didn't see that coming.

 

[M-Mittlesteadt]

Just recently I posted re: an observation I made here at home about a similar circumstance.

In general I admit I now hold less doubt when I read of folks gigging (foh included) with like Rumble 100's and such. I really didn't see that coming.

That is kind of the point of my thread. We all need/want what we do, but since coming back to music after a layoff (and some health issues) what I wanted was to get by with as little as possible for gear (weight especially). Now I know the newer amps (even very powerful ones) are very light these days and were even before my layoff/hiatus).
But cabs were just getting to be considered "light".

Rig prior to my hiatus...1200 watt Carvin head (also had many others...power amps and heads)) running into my fEARful 15/6 cab or my own 110/6 cabs. At that time, I'd have to say my lower wattage threshold was 500 watts, but usually 800 watts or more.

Here was my rig from 2 years ago (behind me), indoor/outdoor gig using my two 110/6 cabs with my 250 watt (per side, 500 watt total) Ashdown Superfly head. Essentially a 500 watt, 210/6 rig with internal crossovers. But each 110/6 cab weighed about 40+ lbs.

I had no intention of buying my 22 lb. combos and Fender was not on my tonal radar at all based on past experience. I never thought the Fender Rumbles would suffice. Certainly not Rumble 100's. Gig with only 100 watts into a full range 112 bass speaker? Ha! Never!

Prior, I wouldn't have even considered it. But after testing them out one day, killing some time as I was waiting on a Roland EP-9 repair job at my local music store, I admit I found the tone, volume to be quite shocking, more so that a 22 lb. combo was producing it!!! I tried out all the Rumble combos and sizes. But I settled on the Rumble 100 (V3) and I can literally pick it up with one finger under the handle!

Just one 100 watt combo can handle most small gigs, but two of them together? Any gig I ever find myself on from here on out those two combined can handle (certainly indoors, but even outdoors with FOH PA support.)

Current rig...two Fender Rumble 100's (V3) chained together...

 

[Tommy Sparks]

I use a Fender 100t and 2 15” Bassman cabs with a very loud drummer and 2 guitar players, no problem at all. One cab doesn’t cut it with that group.